Show Transcript – April 25

Transcript for Sunday, April 25, 2010 – 0700, 1130 and 2400

Monday, April 26, 2010 – 0630

First Nations Fight HST

GUEST –

Ontario Regional Chief Angus Toulouse

Foreign-trained Professionals

GUEST –

Fairness Commissioner Jean Augustine

SEAN MALLEN: When I visit First Nations around Ontario one word is often invoked – Treaty. For those of us who are not aboriginal it has a slightly quaint overtone, something out of the movies, but for First Nations it is a word with great meaning and significance. The treaties may have been signed centuries ago before Canada was even a country, but aboriginal peoples look to them as solemn contracts between nations that need to be respected and followed by the governments of the day – which brings us to the matter of the harmonized sales tax.

(video clip – First Nation demonstration at Queen’s Park))

While many have complained about the HST, the First Nations say their case is different. They currently enjoy an exemption from paying the soon-to-be extinct provincial sales tax. When they go off reserve and want to buy something, they just flash an ID card and the PST is not charged, a convenience that’s about to disappear with the harmonized tax. The First Nations commission to study it indicates it will cost them upwards of $100 million a year.

Patrick Madahbee, Anishinabek Nation Grand Council Chief: In our areas, we are an economically depressed area, this is going to cause such a hardship. You know it’s a violation of our rights.

The government of Ontario says they have a point, but the province would like the point- of-purchase exemption to continue, but it’s Ottawa who says no.

Revenue Minister John Wilkinson: First Nations are rightly frustrated, as is our government, as should all members be frustrated, by the fact that the federal government refuses to sit down at the table where we have been working with First Nations.

The First Nations are not impressed and warn of some kind of protests, possibly blockaded roads, if they don’t get their way.

Joe Gilbert, Chief Walpole Island First Nation: There’s no way on earth that we are going to tell you what we are going to do and we’re not going to consult you on what we’re going to do. We will implement actions that will call attention to this injustice.

On this week’s Focus – Of Treaties and Taxes.

From the Global News Room in Toronto, Focus Ontario with Sean Mallen.

SEAN MALLEN: Thanks for joining me again. Later in the program we’re going to talk about the difficulties faced by foreign-trained professionals in getting jobs in Canada. The Fairness Commissioner of Ontario has some ideas to help them and Jean Augustine will be here to talk about it. But first the HST; my guest is the Regional Chief for Ontario, Angus Toulouse. Welcome back to Focus Ontario.

Angus Toulouse: Thanks for having me, Sean.

SEAN MALLEN: So explain to me the point in law that you believe exempts First Nations from having to pay this HST.

Angus Toulouse: Well, as far as we’re concerned we’ve been here thousands of years. We signed treaties with the crown government; we talked about how we were to live in harmony with one another, how we were to share in the natural resources and the wealth generally speaking, of the country. Since then, actually we signed a treaty, a piece of legislation called The Indian Act, came into place. And in there, s. 67 of The Indian Act, is what recognizes the pre-existing rights. So that’s all that section 67 does is recognize the pre-existing right that we had to this tax exemption – that this nation cannot tax another nation. And we signed treaties on that basis. So that is the legal premise that First Nations believe that we have always exercised this right.

SEAN MALLEN: But I guess the counter argument might be you still get benefits from the government of Canada, the government of Ontario, that are paid for by tax dollars. You get governmental support. Why not also make contributions through tax dollars?

Angus Toulouse: Well, I think that we don’t get any more than any other Ontarian or any other Canadian. We don’t. We see that there are health benefits that are available to any Ontarian; we see education benefits, scholarships that are available to any other Ontarian. These are the same kinds of, not benefits, what we have are rights that talk about the health rights, that talk about the education rights, that talk about the rights in general of the nation that has given all its land, all its wealth to everybody else except ourselves. And Justice Linden pointed that out in his report when he said that this country, this province, was founded on treaties. And there’s only one party that hasn’t benefited economically from these treaties, and it’s the First Nations that have not benefited. Everybody else has.

SEAN MALLEN: Okay, you’re referring to Sidney Linden’s report on the Ipperwash affair.

Angus Toulouse: Yes.

SEAN MALLEN: I want to ask you about, you are able to claim back the GST currently, right? Or PST?

Angus Toulouse: No.

SEAN MALLEN: I mean if you keep your receipts, I gather you’re still able to claim them back. No?

Angus Toulouse: The only organizations that are able to do that are the band administrations. And a lot of it is how the policy works. What I understand is that the Canada Revenue Agency generally speaking looks at the errors that are there, and it’s really purchasing errors or tax errors that really one can claim. As an example my nieces or nephews that live in the community, go to the local town which would be Espanola, and they would buy clothing and they would take it home. Right now the point-of-sale exemption is there for them. Come July 1st they’re not going to be able to do the same thing, even though they’re taking it home. There is no clothing store in the First Nation community, so they have to go out. This is where they’re losing their ability and they can’t get a rebate back on that, it’s not going to happen.

SEAN MALLEN: Just one other point that was raised in the demonstration on Thursday, and that’s about the Rama casino, the proceeds of which are shared among the First Nations. Like a lot of other businesses in Ontario they’re going to have to pay the HST, and they’re saying it’s going to cut into their revenues.

Angus Toulouse: To the tune of $13 million is the estimate.

SEAN MALLEN: Which are shared among the First Nations. But it is a business, is it not. Again, why should that business, a profitable business, why shouldn’t it pay the HST?

Angus Toulouse: Well, at the end of the day the business is supporting the First Nation economy, the business is supporting the education needs, the health needs, the infrastructure needs. That’s essentially what the business does, because the government as you know and have seen and heard, there’s third world conditions in many of our First Nation communities, especially in the remote, isolated communities where infrastructure is not working. The federal government has a lot of time taken the position of out-of-sight, out-of-mind. So we have a huge need, and to continue to take away what little we have, to again bring back to the coffers of the provincial and federal government, is not the answer. We’ve talked about the need for investment now.

SEAN MALLEN: Okay, I need to stop you there, I’m out of time in this segment. We’ll take a break and back in a moment with Angus Toulouse.

* * *

SEAN MALLEN: Welcome back to my conversation with Regional Chief Angus Toulouse. Well, as you well know, the province says it’s on your side. They believe you should continue to have your point-of-purchase exemption. They’re blaming Ottawa. Mr Flaherty was asked about it this week. He said well, you know this is a provincial tax and we’re not going to change our procedures for how we collect the GST. So where does that leave you, and what do you make of that back and forth between the province and the feds on this?

Angus Toulouse: Well, that’s really the big issue is what we’ve seen, the finger-pointing going on. But the reality here is that we need the provincial government to make the substantive kind of commitment to the First Nation leadership. This is what we’ve been seeking by way of an agreement that shows that come July 1st we’re going to maintain the point-of-sale exemption one way or another. They do have it within their comprehensive integrated tax coordination agreement, the CITCA agreement. We’ve been trying to work with them, understanding their limitations within that agreement. But the point is that we need to have that agreement, that understanding, first with the province. We need to then take this to the federal government and essentially say this is how we’re going to maintain the point-of-sale exemption. So this is really again the work that we’ve been working with the provincial officials on, and also some of the elected officials like (Revenue Minister) Wilkinson and (Finance Minister) Duncan, in terms of trying to have a good appreciation and understanding of where’s the problem area, because all we’ve seen is the finger-pointing back and forth.

SEAN MALLEN: So just to be clear, you think the province can do this unilaterally.

Angus Toulouse: Yes.

SEAN MALLEN: They can just, as much as they’re exempting baby clothes and the rest of it, they can exempt First Nations and let them show their card again.

Angus Toulouse: That’s essentially what we’re wanting to have a discussion around in terms of let’s see the limitations of the CITCA agreement. Let’s make sure that it’s going to work, because what we’ve seen in terms of our economist is that there’s ample room to recognize what we believe it may cost. And the estimate from Dr Fred Lazar, the economist that did the work for us, he estimates anywhere from $85 million to $121 million, and that’s going to grow as the wages increase and the expenses.

SEAN MALLEN: So what next. We had a demonstration a few months ago in Toronto, that spilled out on the streets, blocked traffic. We’ve had the highway blocked, I think they blocked the highway in Espanola for awhile this past week. Talk of direct action. What does direct action mean? Are we going to see more blockades this summer? What are you going to do?

Angus Toulouse: Well, I would rather see us have this agreement with the province, have this understanding with the federal government, have the point-of-sale exemption continue July 1st. That’s what we want to see.

SEAN MALLEN: But.

Angus Toulouse: Failing that, I know that our leadership has essentially said that enough is enough. We never agreed to the GST to begin with. That was forced and imposed on the First Nations people. That certainly wakes us up again to say hey, hang on a minute. That first five percent that they imposed is something that we never agreed to, something that we never got consulted on. Even though we haven’t been consulted when the federal and provincial governments talked about this legislation, we’ve been reasonable in trying to work with them, but reminding them each time that they haven’t done that.

SEAN MALLEN: Okay, but are you about to be unreasonable? Are you about to start blocking roads?

Angus Toulouse: Well, I hear First Nation leadership, and not the leadership, but citizens say, they’re telling their chiefs, I think chief, we’re going to have to put a toll up here right across the highway. I’ve heard citizens say that and I’ve heard citizens say that well, I guess the federal and provincial governments aren’t hearing us. Maybe we need to do something so that they can hear us. So these are some of the comments that I’ve heard, and I believe that First Nations aren’t going to wait for July 1st to get the attention of the federal and provincial government.

SEAN MALLEN: Okay, that’s our time. Well, we’ll be watching. See what happens next. Angus Toulouse, thanks for coming back to Focus Ontario. And when we return we talk about the doctors who are driving cabs.

* * *

SEAN MALLEN: In this nation of immigrants it is a galling image, the doctor who drives a cab, the engineer who’s a janitor, all because they got their training in another country and can’t seem to get themselves accredited here. Well, Ontario has a Fairness Commissioner whose job it is to inquire into these matters and to offer advice on how to change things. She is the former MP and cabinet minister, Jean Augustine. Welcome to Focus Ontario.

Jean Augustine: Well, thank you so very much, Sean.

SEAN MALLEN: Now you’ve had personal experience in this. Some years ago you came to Canada from Grenada, trained as a teacher. What problems did you run into?

Jean Augustine: Well, just assessing my qualification at the time. There was no qualification assessment agency, so I had to stand at a desk and try to convince a very nice lady in a clerical position that I had Oxford and Cambridge overseas school certificate, and therefore I was entitled to attend teachers’ college and not return to Grade 13.

SEAN MALLEN: And how did that go?

Jean Augustine: It didn’t go too well, but in the end I had someone who understood what that system was, and understood what Oxford and Cambridge overseas school certificate was, and that indeed I did have entrance into teachers’ college.

SEAN MALLEN: Okay, so you’re now in your third year as Fairness Commissioner in Ontario. You just had a major report surveying applicants. So give us an overall assessment. How fair is it for people applying to get their credentials registered?

Jean Augustine: I think the legislation which was passed at the end of 2006, and my office opened in 2007, the legislation called for forty or so regulatory bodies in the province of Ontario to have processes in a sincere and open entrance experience, and that individuals when they approach the system, should know how long it’s going to take, the timeliness of the process.

One of the earliest things we did was ask the regulatory bodies themselves to review their processes. So the legislation said they had to do three things. One, review their processes, the registration for teachers’ practices; two, that they had to submit themselves to audit, to audit which says this is what we’re doing, and this is verified; and thirdly, that they had to look at ways in which they could look at the relevancy and the necessity for what they had as criteria for registration. They’ve all gone through this in the past three years. We’ve had really good working relationships with the foreign bodies as we work through the process, these three stages. We also did a survey of the bodies, called third-party bodies, that give results of exams and tests and competency measures, etc., to the regulatory bodies, and the legislation calls for those bodies to have the same transparent, objective ways and those are important bodies because whatever they pass on is important in terms of the applicants.

And we’ve been working with and have gone throughout the province talking with people who are doing research and looking at migration issues and looking at where people are coming from and what they are bringing with them. I’ve also been working with and trying to find out some community organizations that are helping individuals to manoeuvre the system, and so the last part was to really hear from the applicants themselves.

SEAN MALLEN: Which is the report that just came out, and you seem to be indicating some progress. It’s not all grim, but you are hearing stories still, it seems to be one of the biggest issues is just information. People don’t get the right information or enough information from abroad. Speak about that one.

Jean Augustine: That’s exactly it. We’ve seen some good progress. We’ve seen women on the part of the regulatory bodies to make sure that they examine their processes as they things move forward. At the same time we get too many voices. There are 38 people who voluntarily went on-line and completed a 20-minute or so survey. And we had focus groups. And over and over we keep hearing the issue of communication – I didn’t know; had I known. And there are people who said to us if I knew the process – over and over we hear this – if I knew the process was going to be so tedious, if I knew the process was going to be so costly, if I knew the process was going to be so frustrating, I would not have chosen Canada. And I think it’s really a sad commentary.

At the same time, as part of the recommendations I made, I call on the regulatory bodies to make sure that their websites are readable, that the information they give to individuals is clear and transparent, and I talk to the applicants about appeal processes and ways in which these things can happen, because over and over individuals will say, well, we didn’t know. We didn’t even know we could have started the process from back home before we arrived.

SEAN MALLEN: You mention in the report how probably the most complicated area, no surprise, is for physicians.

Jean Augustine: Exactly.

SEAN MALLEN: We just had a report this week from the College of Physicians saying more foreign-trained professionals in that area are getting accredited. Are we still making progress there? Do we still have the image of the doctor driving a cab or delivering pizzas?

Jean Augustine: Well, it seems to me that as we move forward life is going to be better for those who are joining us. I am saddened by those who have been in the system for the last five to eight years, kind of banging against the door, because it’s going to be very difficult for them. As you know a professional who is outside, or who is not practicing his or her profession for awhile, getting back in and getting those skills honed and up-to-date is also very difficult. In the medical field there are seven organizations, seven layers, through which the individual has to manoeuvre. It’s a very complex system, and by complex system it seems to me that there are a number of silos and that the silos are not really talking to teach other in the best interests of the applicant.

So one of the things I called for as a recommendation to the Minister of Health is to bring those silos together, to bring those seven organizations who have a say in this complex way of licensing doctors, that if we can all get around the table, understand exactly who has responsibility for what, how it works, how long the process takes from one to the next, then I think we can bring some clarity to that.

SEAN MALLEN: So just a minute left, so you’re saying in the medical profession at least, some progress, but it’s still pretty complicated. As we know there’s a shortage of doctors in this province.

Jean Augustine: That’s right.

SEAN MALLEN: So cast your mind back to when you first came to Canada, say you were somewhat younger. Jean Augustine coming from Grenada today.

Jean Augustine: I was sixteen years younger.

SEAN MALLEN: Okay, you want to put the number on it. And you’re coming to Canada today as a teacher. Would it be easier for you, someone with the kind of training you had, to get a job as a teacher in Ontario today than it was fifteen years ago?

Jean Augustine: Well, the times are different and in those days the systems were not complex. It was one woman making a decision whether she was going to give me a form or not give me a form. I think the system is more complex now than it was then. The issue of registering teachers, of issue of registering nurses, and even physicians, I mean those are complex processes.

SEAN MALLEN: Okay, a big topic, but it’s good to have you on the program to talk about it.

Jean Augustine: Thank you.

SEAN MALLEN: Nice to have you on the program. And one segment to go on Focus, with your comments and the Play of the Week – Low Cost Lager.

* * *

Play of the Week

(video clip – Ontario legislature)

Andrea Horwath: I want to ask about the closing of Lakeport brewery in Hamilton.

SEAN MALLEN: The departure of the brewery is a serious matter in steel town, which got serious answers in Question Period from the Minister of Economic Development. But afterwards Sandra Pupatello was caught off guard when our colleague, Randy Rath, asked her about Lakeport’s best-known bargaining tool.

Randy Rath: Was that a mistake to kill buck a beer in this province. The big brewers were lobbying for that.

Sandra Pupatello: I’m not aware of the whole campaign around it. I don’t want to admit that I don’t drink beer, and don’t follow the beer campaigns actively, but I’m a wine girl.

Randy Rath: Get back to the question.

What you can’t see in the shot is Pupatello giving Rath a friendly but firm poke in the arm for throwing her a curve-ball question.

– – –

And now your comments. Last week the subject was the war of words between the government and the pharmacies over generic drugs. First an e-mail from Stan Morris, who writes: “We have just watched your show on this topic. I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that this government has lost its accountability to the people of Ontario. As one who voted Liberal in the past, I will seriously reconsider who I will support in the next election.”

And listen to these two voice-mails: “In regards to this small town I live in, with a population of 17,000, there are actually five drug stores that people would potentially be able to take from to purchase their drugs. I think our tax dollars could be used more efficiently, and we could probably end up with some better service, if it was used efficiently. I look at the extended store hours they have, and when I’ve been in there at a later time, they’re empty.” Angela

“I also think it’s interesting, this is the government that also de-listed eye exams, physiotherapy and chiropractors too, even though those are preventative measures. I don’t know where we’re going. I don’t trust the government.” Fiona McCallum

Your comments are an important part of our program. So I wonder if you have something to say about natives paying the HST, or whether you’re a foreign-trained professional. Anyway, here’s how you can register your comment. You can write me a letter to:

Focus Ontario

Global Television

81 Barber Greene Road

Toronto, Ontario

M3C 2A2

e-mail: focusontario@globaltv.com

voice-mail message at 1-866-895-9555

Here’s the web information: http://www.globaltoronto.com/focusontario

You can see this show streamed if you want an instant replay.

And that’s our program for this week. I’m Sean Mallen; thanks for watching. We’ll see you next weekend.

* * *

* * *

SEAN MALLEN: And that’s Focus for this week from Marten Falls. I’m Sean Mallen; thanks for watching. We’ll see you next weekend.

* * *

Focus Ontario

Global Television

81 Barber Greene Road

Toronto, Ontario

M3C 2A2

e-mail: focusontario@globaltv.com

voice-mail message at 1-866-895-9555

http://www.globaltoronto.com/focusontario