What is my financial obligation to my family?
Last Friday’s question about the moral implications of spending prompted a great discussion, as well as a few personal messages. One of those e-mails was from Dave, who wrote with his own ethical dilemma. Instead of looking at the world at large, Dave wants to know how to handle a financial dilemma closer to home: with his own family. Here’s his story:
I read your site though I no longer need it. I did a lot of the things you talk about and was able to retire early because of it. The rest of my family hasn’t been as smart or lucky. My sister is doing okay, I guess, but my brother is in a lot of trouble, and my parents aren’t anywhere near ready for retirement.
My brother and his wife have two kids. They declared bankruptcy a couple of years ago and have tried to make a fresh start. Life has dealt them some bad blows, but they’re doing nothing to protect themselves either. To be honest, I feel like they just set themselves up for trouble. After declaring bankruptcy, they just returned to their former lifestyle and now they’re back in debt again.
I could help my brother but I don’t know if I should. (Plus I don’t know if I even want to, which makes me feel like a jerk.) What if I loan him $10,000 (or give him the money)? That might solve the immediate crisis, but what does it help long term?
My parents have problems too. They don’t spend a lot, I guess, but they hardly have anything saved for retirement, and they should both be retiring in a few years. I think they have maybe $20,000 total in a savings account, and maybe the same in various retirement plans. They don’t spend a lot, but still $40,000 won’t last long.
I guess I’m wondering: What’s my financial obligation to my family? I could bail them out, but I feel like that won’t solve any of the problems. Should I do it anyway? How? I don’t want my brother and his family to be living on the streets and I don’t want to see my parents eating dog food, but I find it difficult to help them when they won’t even help themselves. What are my responsibilities here?
I sympathize with Dave. I’m not as well of as he is, but I sometimes wonder what my obligation to my own family is. Like Dave, I have a brother who has really struggled with his finances over the past few years. Some of this is because bad things have happened to him, but a lot of it stems from his choices. And he just seems to keep making the same poor choices, even when I offer suggestions on how he might help himself.
Family issues like this are a perfect example of how money is more about mind than it is about math. It’s tough to make an objective, logical decision about how to help your brother or your parents. There’s just too much other baggage involved.
In my case, I’m not willing to loan my brother money. Though it sounds harsh, I don’t think he’d ever repay it. (And yes, I know that when you lend money to family and friends, it’s often best to view the loan as a gift instead. I’m not even willing to do that, though.) Plus, I don’t think my brother has actually reached a point where he’s ready to make the changes he needs to in order to take control of his finances. He’d rather spend money he doesn’t have to look like he has it than to cut back for a few years and live with less so that he can have more in the future. In other words, he’s not willing to make sacrifices today in order to have a better tomorrow. And that’s what getting rich slowly is all about.
So, I don’t actually have any constructive advice for Dave. I’m in the same boat, though on a smaller scale. Like Dave, I can’t figure out what my financial obligations are in this situation. Can you?
When your siblings get into financial trouble, what are your responsibilities? What about your parents? Have you bailed out a family member before? How did that work? Can you give tips on what went right, as well as offer suggestions on what you would not do in the future? And if you’ve never had to face a situation like this, how do you think you’d handle it? Help Dave (and me) figure out how we can steer our family in the right direction.
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There are 278 comments to "What is my financial obligation to my family?".
“Give a man a fish and he’ll eat for a day. Teach a man HOW to fish and he’ll eat for a lifetime!”
Dave,
I would not loan your brother any money. Sure, the instant cash would help them with their short-term difficulties, but ultimately, they’ll still be in the same boat. You’ve seen it yourself after their bankruptcy!
Rather, I would suggest you offer to pay for a personal finance class to help them with their budget and expenses. If they don’t want that, then they really don’t want any help… just a hand-out.
As for your parents, that’s a tough one. If they are without debt, they might be ok for a while (if Social Security hangs around for them). Older people tend to live on less without much problem.
If, however, you notice that their fridge is almost always empty … you may want to talk with them and ask them how you can help.
Good luck Dave!
I agree about the parents- especially if both of them worked enough to receive SS. There was great concern that my in laws would never be able to live through their retirement with as little money as WE thought they had. They not only lived fine on Social Security and a small pension, but raised a garden that fed a neighborhood of widows. It was all in the planning. The time to help will be when one passes.The loss of the person AND the other check are huge.
My money stops with my parents and children. My brothers are both terrible with money and have no reason to change since my mother has bailed them out since they were 20. They now reach retirement with little. They have been self employed- so I have no idea if they paid into social security. BUT they have had the opportunity to make huge money and save- and chose not to. Those are the choices.
Harsh as it may seem- those are the choices we make.
The brothers have pockets that they do not reach into though- ones we have just heard about. While screaming “on the street” —one has a few antique cars and the other has never touched his 401K.
BTW- never loan money to anyone of importance to you—give it to them. It is not worth the anxiety of watching them fritter it away while you never collect a dime. That I also learned from my mom!
Jan,
But how would you reconcile helping your parents, when the reason they’ve not got any money is they’ve been bailing out your brothers?
That’s my situation, only it’s my inlaws, which makes it much more tense. My sisters in law have both been financially irresponsible and my husband’s parents have been bailing them out. Now the parents are close to retirement and have very little, and while one sister has changed the other one is still taking advantage.
We can’t let them starve, but it’s really frustrating that the reason they NEED help is because of the sister. So how do you deal with that?
I completely agree that helping the brother should be tied to “teaching the man to fish” and I like the idea of paying for financial classes. However, you can only teach him if he is willing to learn. It’s a delicate matter but if he set some financial goals, perhaps you could provide a gift tied to reaching those goals… goals set by him.
As for the parents, I am facing the same dilemma. My father is in retirement and my mother will be shortly. Neither of them has a dime saved. Of course I would never let them go hungry, but these are consequences of a lifetime of poor financial decisions (coupled with some bad luck) that they continue to make. I have come to the conclusion that my parents are going to have to live within their means (even if that is just SS) but I am prepared to step in if there is some sort of an emergency. Of course I keep this info to myself so that everything doesn’t become an emergency.
I completely agree with the previous 2 posters.
My mother and father in law are going through a similar money crises. After thinly veiled requests for flat out cash, the ‘kids’ in the family decided to try and teach them good financial habits (budgeting, trimming spending, even buying them a copy of Dave Ramsey’s ‘Total Money Makeover’). They made a half hearted attempt a few months ago but have now stopped, and continue spending. They have a negative cash flow each month somewhere between $500-1500 and just keep charging, or pulling money out of their retirement accounts.
Long story short – you can’t MAKE anyone change. Even if they ask for ‘help’, they may only be willing to receive one kind of help at the time — free handouts. And like you pointed out, your family does the easy route (bankruptcy), and then jumps right back in again.
Read this post on the Simple Dollar, it was eye opening for us:
http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2011/05/06/what-is-the-bottom/
I enjoyed that link, especially the sentence “any help you give to someone on a downward trajectory will just prolong that downward trajectory”.
That post is spot on.
My husband and I had just graduated from college and we were scraping the bottom of our finances. A study abroad trip had wiped our savings account, my husband was underemployed with his job ending soon and I was unemployed. Our student loans were about to came due and we were going to have trouble paying rent very soon.
My brother gave us $1000 to help tide us over, because they were doing well and could afford it. I really appreciated the money at the time, but looking back it just allowed me to keep up with my same spending habits. It took moving in with my husband’s parents and several weeks of freaking out about how to pay our loans before we finally got our finances in order and started being responsible.
I would have appreciated that money even more once we’d gotten ourselves straightened out, since it would have been an awesome step in the right direction, instead of just delaying the inevitable.
It can be hard to know where that point is, but I definitely say help out only if the family member wants to (and is working to) change.
My family members are doing OK, so I can’t speak from experience. But I believe I would feel more responsibility towards my parents than towards a sibling. They did, after all, raise me. I don’t mean I would support even my parents endlessly, though.
That said, my husband and I have had the issue with one of my stepdaughters, who has had financial problems since she got married. She did pay most of the loans back, but it often felt very uncomfortable. I felt like a banker. Most of the time we would only hear from her when she and her husband needed money.
Ironically, two weeks after she paid off her last loan, she said she needed a “break” and wanted no more contact with us. That was over a year ago. We are not clear all the reasons why, since she won’t tell us. I don’t know if the money tension was part of it. She is just now showing a few signs that she may be ready to connect again.
So, money issues with family members, in my experience, is loaded. Good luck!
After my sister’s divorce, she struggled financially but was too proud to take a loan/gift from her family….so I checked out a copy of Dave Ramsey’s “Total Money Makeover” and left it sitting around my house when she came over….she casually picked it up and then when I raved about what a great help the book was to our family she seemed interested. I offered to let her borrow it for a few weeks. She returned it a week later excitedly talking about it and has really used some of the tips in it to get on a more financially sound base.
I think letting her pick up the book off my coffee table was sneaky, but it was also much more effective than a lecture from her sister:)
That’s an amazing technique, as it let you help, but she had to make the first move, so it doesn’t feel pushy. I bet saying how it had helped you (i.e. admitting you weren’t perfect) helped on that score too!
I’m curious to see how this conversation pans out. I haven’t had to deal with this situation yet, but I wonder at what point does helping become enabling? I like LifeandMyFinances’s suggestion to pay for classes. I’d take that one step further and offer to pay for counselling or a financial advisor, if they were open to that. Though I realize it’s hard for some people to admit they have a problem or accept help. Ultimately, you can’t help someone until they want to change.
As for parents, I’ve seen a lot of research on how much time and money baby boomers are contributing to their parents’ welfare — even to the point where it risks their own financial security or retirement plans. It’s something I think people need to be aware of and think about ahead of time so they don’t get completely derailed.
I’d like to see the numbers about how many early gen Xers are supporting their baby boomer parents.
The first question to be considered is: is or has your family ASKED for help, or implied that they are expecting it?
According to my very straight laced relatives, I’m going to be the “need to be helped” relative. But not because I spend too much, but because I have lived a bare life by choice and my road doesn’t look like their road. To them, I am not a success. However, if my life ends me up under a bridge, then I’d rather the bridge than to cow tow to my relatives “all about money, all the time” and “security at all costs–even freedom” lifestyle.
I’d like to see those numbers too! I keep reading about the baby boomers being the “sandwich generation”, but I have friends in who are in their 30s and 40s who are helping look after their 70+ plus parents. The baby boomers may be the first trying to look after parents and kids, but they won’t be the last!
One theme I consistently see in my research is that people have to look after their own financial security too. It’s noble to look after your parents and kids, but part of the way you can do that is to be financially secure yourself so you don’t become a burden later on.
I am a Gen-Xer with parents aged 63 and 73. They’re in very good health but one reason that I want to “get rich slowly” is so that I can take care of them when they need it. I feel like it’s my obligation to care for my parents. Whether or not they would WANT to be taken care of is another story. They may prefer to stay in a senior citizen’s home and socialize with other seniors, but I want to be able to afford a big enough house that they can come live with me, and I want to be able to afford in home care if they need it.
I owe them my life. They were not perfect, but nobody is. They are good parents and they put up with a lot from me, especially in my teen years. I also think it won’t be such a bad example to set for my own children. 😉
Even though this response is a bit late compared to the others, I am also very interested to see the numbers of gen-X’s financially contributing to their baby boomer parents. In my case, at first I felt like Lindsey below, wishing to help my parents at all costs. However, over time, and especially after one of my parents lost their job as the other retired, they began to look to me to pay some of their largest monthly bills. Now, for the past 2-3 years, a full one-third of my net income pays just for my parents bills. When I try to explain this is a drain on my ability to save for the future, they respond that it’s better to use my $ because I can still earn money, whereas they cannot. Actually, even though one parent is moderately disabled, and the other is a bit older – now 80 yrs old (so really not a boomer), they don’t even want to TRY, i.e. placing some items to sell on ebay, or a small part-time job. Also, because I am the oldest of 3 children, they feel I make the most $, and because I am still single, it is my “duty and ability” to financially support them. They never ask my siblings to contribute, nor even just to pay one bill. Plus, my siblings are in 2 income relationships (i.e. both are engaged), so their combined income of each couple is substantially more than me(neither couple has children, yet either).
At first, I did feel I was truly helping, as I was supplementing their combined income, however this help somehow morphed into a presumed obligation that I cannot get out of. No rational argument can get through to them. Probably the biggest slap in the face to me is that their retirement is their savings, and they honestly do not see why they should spend this money, again their argument being because they no longer work to earn an income. Their social security is modest, but I am not exactly sure where that goes, though likely to be fair it goes for food, medicine, utilities, gas, and property taxes. What also ticks me off is that they qualified for some government assistance for at least a couple years now (which I didn’t know about), but they were “too proud” to apply. When I confronted them about this, and asked straight out if they ever think about my financial future, their answer was, “No!” I am still having a hard time wrapping my head around this!
I feel for those gen-X’s that are not only supporting their parents as I am, but also have children. Single parents in such a situation must be saints!
In any case, I think the numbers of gen’X’s financially supporting their parents are continually increasing, and need to be studied and accounted for. It’s extremely sad that my generation needs to help the boomers at all, as theirs has been the most prosperous generation our country has ever seen. It speaks to their mentality of will, want, and waste. True, the baby boomers did alot to change society, but not always for the better. On the other hand, gen-X’s have been struggling all along, essentially living off the scraps of the boomers, and then having to thank them for the privilege. Now, while I do respect taking care of one’s family, especially in times of need, I want to acknowledge the flip side, that some of our parents are learning to take advantage of the situation, and therefore, their own children. It makes for a very sad situation.
I think you need to set a boundary and give your parents x amount of time for them to come up with an alternate plan, sell their home, sell things, take money out of retirement, etc. You have let them dictate to you what you can do with the money you earn. If you do get married and have children what you are doing now is going to affect them and their future. You need to set boundaries with your parents and stick to it. My husband had his mom say she ‘expected her son’s to take care of her’ as she was blowing through what both of them made put together. My son told her numerous times, we won’t be able to help you more than $xxx amount and if you run out you are on your own. She is now having to deal with the consequences of her actions and is not liking it very much.
Keep in mind that the boomers were the first generation forced to pay through the nose into Social Security so that THEIR parents — many of whom had good pensions — had money to burn during retirement. Take a look at who’s been flushing money away at the Indian casinos.
The “Greatest” Generation and the Silent Generation have had money to burn because they worked during worker-friendly times, NOT because they worked hard or were frugal. Then they turned around and replaced their kids’ pension systems with the 401K lottery, among other things.
I’d say you shouldn’t provide monetary assistance. I’m a firm believer that adding money to the situation would likely complicate the problems further.
Besides that, if they haven’t shown a desire to save more and/or spend less, your money will be wasted anyway. That would almost certainly breed some form of contempt and then things go down hill from there.
I assume you have, but have you attempted talking to both your parents and your brother? Until you know where they stand and how they feel about the situation it would be difficult to make an educated decision.
I guess you should not give money to your brother. If at all, you can try to help his two kids. But it will be difficult to make sure that help is really reaching them and not their parents.
With your parents, that is indeed difficult. It sounds you could afford to give them some money on a monthly basis, but such things are almost always questions of pride. So you might need to find other ways to help them so they can keep their face accepting it from you.
If the parents live nearby, invite them over for a dinner of a regular basis.
That way you get to see them and you know that at least once a week/month what ever their are getting a good meal without needing to offer them money or food hand outs.
It’s surprising how much they could save by knowing they don’t need to buy food for one particular night. Of course it only works if they are close, no point doing that and then having them pay more than they would on food to get to your home.
My wife & usually cook in big lots on the weekends and divide it up into weekly meals. Every Sunday after church, we stop by my mother’s house and give her enough meals for lunch or supper every day during the week. We visit for about an hour and she is happy. For her birthday and holidays, we give her a gift card to her favorite grocery store. My brothers are on their own.
I love this! How thoughtful and caring to do this for your Mom! You are helping without being pushy and I’m willing to bet that every time she heats up a delicious meal, she smiles and thinks of you.
Yes, this is generous on so many levels. What a kind and gracious commitment.
Oh your mother has to love this! Such a great solution. She gets good meals & quality time with her family.
Thanks for this suggestion! My mother is nearing this point (although still in her working years), and we are generally opposed to buying her even groceries or grocery gift cards. I can see how cooking meals assures she would eat well, she eats the best when she comes to our house for dinner, but it would be great to know she was actually eating balanced meals at home.
When we invite my folks over for dinner, they take home a CARE package with almost all the leftovers – we intentionally cook a lot, and sometimes they can eat for a few days on the leftovers (which I think my Mom enjoys, as cooking is not a favorite activity). I really like the idea of reviving the Sunday family dinner.
I have a brother who has fallen on a lot of difficult times, and though I love him and we have all helped him out and continue to do so from time to time, it often feels like the money gets dumped into a black hole.
Instead, I have chosen to pay for things that I believe are worthwhile. I have just finished paying for their second child’s braces, and I feel great every time I see them smile. Both really needed them and possibly wouldn’t have gotten them otherwise, so I feel like the money was well spent. Yes, it was over $8,000, which is more than I ever would have loaned/given them, but I know where it has gone and it was an investment I was happy with.
Yeah, good luck.
Obviously no on the brother. We do offer to directly pay for certain things for the children of a relative… specifically educational opportunities, etc. So far offers to pay for classes and counseling have been met with offense, and books left unread. But, the fact that we send financial books every time they need money means we’re the last relatives they ask.
Re: parents. Suze Orman says you have to support them. It doesn’t sound like you have to support them now, but you probably will in the future, sometime between when their money runs out and they need to be in a nursing home on Medicaid. So yeah, save up for that. Medicare doesn’t cover everything.
“But, the fact that we send financial books every time they need money means we’re the last relatives they ask.”
Hilarious. If anyone ever asks me for money, this will be my response too. 🙂
I’d send the personal finance book with a note saying, “When I receive an e-mail from you discussing what you got out of reading this book, then I’ll send you the $X you asked for.” It’s probably a fecal thing to do, but for me it’d be worth it. 🙂
Isn’t conditioning your help in this completely arbitrary despite being well intentioned and serves no purpose? What stops the person from merely perusing the book and throwing together a quick book report?
Are you sure about the Suze Orman thing? The one Suze Orman book I read said that parents are obligated to help their children (because the parents chose to bring the children into the world), but not the other way around. And no one is obligated to help their siblings. Seriously, I don’t think anyone is “obligated” to do anything for their parents. I have wonderful parents who likely will never need my help, but I would be glad to help them if they ever asked (because they’ve been a wonderful influence on my life). My DH, on the other hand, has parents who never should’ve gotten married, fought all the time, one cheated on the other and they finally divorced when DH was 13. The divorce and lack of parenting skills seriously scarred him for years, probably through his mid-late 20s. I really don’t see how someone who was raised by parents like this could possibly be “obligated” to help them out financially, just because his mother chose to give birth to him. His parents never had and still don’t have any financial saavy and are completely broke. We don’t help them financially, except to pay for his mom’s phone bill, so we can get in touch w/ her, but we do spend many hours helping them to access services they need (mom is disabled). We really don’t do any of this out of a feeling of obligation, though. We just do it because it’s the right thing to do.
As someone who bottomed out and turned their financial life around, I have to say that you just can’t really help people who are still on a downward trajectory. I received help from my family when still digging into debt, and it did nothing for me really. It might have made the hole I was digging a tad bit less deep, but it didn’t turn me around.
You also can’t always help someone who’s hit the bottom either. There’s a period of time after bottoming out that little progress is made and attitudes haven’t really changed. The new habits haven’t formed at this point and it’s almost a 50/50 chance whether or not assistance at this point will help or hurt.
The best point to help is when someone is on the upswing. They’ve begun to reform their spending habits, are establishing new behaviors and are seriously trying to get their life back in order. This is the point where you can help a LOT. Plus, a little bit of money at this point goes a long way. A $5k gift when someone is still in freefall isn’t even a speedbump, but when they’re in the process of paying off the debt and building savings, it can be a huge shot in the arm.
Like others will probably write, I don’t think you can help your brother at this point. The motivation to fix something like this comes from within. Any meddling from the outside will either be ignored or taken offense to. Wait until he begins his own turn-around to offer help.
If that doesn’t sit well with you, and you feel you still must help the family, start a college savings account for his kids. It sounds like they won’t have the money (or the credit) to pay for their kids to go to college if that’s what the kids want. Put away some money that can help them get through a semester or two. Not the whole thing, just something to supplement grants, scholarships, part time jobs etc. This will make a huge difference for the next generation of your family.
Your parents are a tough call. You haven’t told us enough about their situation to really offer advice. I think one way or another you will be helping to support them in the future. Plan for it, but don’t jump in immediately. Wait and see what the actual need is.
I have to agree with this, from personal experience. I won’t go into details about my downward spiral, but I’m on the upswing now. A relative sent me $1000 out of the blue (probably because she saw the signs of me really trying to dig myself out) and it has been a huge help. I took about $400 and bought a good bicycle, and it has already paid for itself in the gas I’ve saved running around town. I only use the car when I have to go out of town, now. The rest went into an emergency fund that ensured I wouldn’t end up back at square one if something unforeseen happened.
Those were both goals that I would have achieved, eventually. They were goals I had already set for myself, and I had a plan for how to achieve them. However, it would have taken me a lot longer, and I can’t even say how much that huge boost improved my morale. 🙂
This is a really interesting point of view, one that I didn’t think of before.
You are right, the “help” wouldn’t do anything if the person you are helping does not want it… It’s throwing good money after bad.
I do have siblings who are not financially savvy. I used to worry about them incessantly, lecturing them, and then helping them out of guilt. But did that help? Not really. I don’t think it was ever appreciated or recognized… In fact, it made things worse because it gave the irresponsible party a sense of entitlement – that the help should be automatic and expected.
We’re all adults and have the responsibility to manage our affairs. I realized I can’t worry too much about other adults, who clearly have the choice and means to manage their lives.
I have however, started a small savings fund for my parents. They don’t know about it, but I plan to draw from that account when they ask for help. I am preparing myself now for the inevitable. They have no savings/retirement aside from the house they are intending to sell.
My brother and his wife seem to do ok. I think more paycheck to paycheck than downward spiral, although I don’t really know. Anyway, their kids are the only one’s in the family and they get tons of toys and junk for birthdays and Christmas. So I put $100 in their 529 plans (that I started) instead. Sadly, it’s probably the only help they’ll get, other than government and whatever scholarships they find for themselves.
I’ve loaned my sister money so she could pay off a loan to my dad – I know, you don’t have to tell me.
It wasn’t a huge loan by any stretch of the imgination, only a couple of hundred pounds but it was significant given we were both teenagers at that time. I viewed it as a gift, but I told her that I wanted it all back plus a little be of interest so that she would learn (0.5% if I remember correctly – at the time Current Accounts were paying about 3%).
To her credit, she paid it all back without missing a payment and I don’t think she got herself personally into that sort of overdrawn issue again, although I suspect she was lending money to a dead-beat boyfriend at one point and probably as a couple they were in some tight spots at times.
I used it as a learning opportunity and I think it worked. However we were both young and I believed she would learn from the experience, which she did, and I could easily afford a couple of hundred quid.
Luckily my immediate family is financially responsible. I’m the oldest kid in the family and I helped out a bit when my brothers were in college. I shelled out the down payment for a two bedroom condo when my bro went to grad school in Texas (cheap housing there.) He rented out one room and that covered the mortgage payment. Once he left school, he sold the condo for a small profit and then sent me back that money. It worked out well, but I wouldn’t recommend it unless you can afford to lose that money.
As for Dave. You shouldn’t lend your brother money because he’ll just use it up. He needs to make some changes and you can try to help him by giving advices. As long as he keeps racking up debt, nothing will help. I think you need to help your parents out though. If you’re retired now, you should try to spend more time with your parents and really work on getting their finance in order.
I agree. There are two situations in which I’d help family or friends.
1) The amount is small enough that I can think of it as a gift and not worry about getting it back. I can take it out of savings without really noticing.
2) They have dramatic life needs — that is they are hungry, out of a place to stay, etc. But again, it would have to be money I could spend, not money that might put my family in the same spot.
In my family, I seem to be the only real saver. I’m uncomfortable with debt (when our mortgage got to the point that we could fairly easily pay it off from savings was a happy day) and am edgy if I don’t have savings that I consider sufficient.
My siblings are generous and lovely, but they often spend in ways and on things that I just wouldn’t. Also, they’re older and looking at retirement now, in the face of the current economy. Fortunately they’re all in relatively good health, because they’re going to be working (or looking for work) for lots more years.
I think that family is family–they should know they can turn to you as “the safety net of last resort”.
By that I mean, to bail them out of jail, pay for lifesaving surgery for their kid, put food in their fridge if they’re retired and have no savings anymore, or maybe give them one month’s rent so they can keep their place until they get a paycheck from their new job. I’ve had to do this–my ex-husband’s family (in another country) got into trouble repaying a loan that they got by using their house for collateral, so we sent them $5K so they could keep their house (gift, not loan). Yeah they were stupid but the house/land was pretty much all they had and if they’d lost it there was no way they’d ever get it back. They never did that again, BTW.
On the other hand, while telling your relatives that you’ll help as a last resort, I think you can feel free to say that their current situation isn’t that bad so you aren’t going to give them anything. If they’re just in debt up to their eyeballs, that’s not a reason for you to step in, that’s a reason for them to step up. If they’re behind on the cell phone bill or car payment–it’s their problem.
I think the trick is to communicate to family somehow that you might step in and help, if you can, if things get really dire, but probably only once so they better take care of things on their own if they can.
I agree with this 100% – I’d step in to save a sibling or parent from homelessness, but not give them cash infusions to keep on doing the exact same thing they’ve been doing. For a debt junkie it’s just like giving booze money to a drunk.
I’ll help my neices & nephews pay for college tuition if they go – but I won’t give their mom cigarette money.
And I just say, thank God for my stepmom and her pension, I wasn’t looking forward to taking care of my spendthrift addict of a father and she took it on voluntarily.
On the other side of the coin: I have two adult children, one of which always is short of money and the other of which is not. She has been gifted/loaned substantial money over the past 18 years until about 6 months ago when I said to myself “enough is enough.” I will not be an enabler any longer. Now there is a grandchild facing college and as far as I know there is little, if any, money for that. Now I ask myself if I should offer to help or not. So far it has been not. That child has learned behavior from the parent that will only perpetuate the problem. I’m still working – long past retirement – and could help but I don’t believe I should. It’s a tough decision and one that causes me much heartache, soul searching and, yes, prayer every day. I have decided, painful though it is, that the best way I can help right now is not to help.
One thing to remember regarding the grandchild facing college: She can apply for grants and loans. You don’t get grants or loans for your retirement. She’s got her whole life to pay back those loans. And she might take her education more seriously if she has to pay for it herself.
After I graduated from college, paid for with a combination of loans and my own sweat equity, my grandmother gave me a lovely gift. She asked me for my student loan servicing number and she paid off a chunk of my student loans. She had made some really good investments and needed to reduce her estate each year, so she’d gift monies to us grandkids annually, but only for things that helped with our education. She didn’t want us to fritter it away. It was a good call on her part, and I can’t tell you the relief that came with not having to make another student loan payment. If you’re of the means later on down the road, you have options for how to help your grandaughter with college, but bailing out her parents right now doesn’t sound to me like the best call.
I’m coming late to the table, but I agree with the suggestion regarding your grandchild’s college education. Let her decide if she really wants to go to college and go through the steps of getting loans and grants, etc. After she graduates, gets a job, and starts paying her loans back, then you could step in with a gift to pay her loans off if you like. Meanwhile, she’s learning some good life lessons. My husband’s grandmother did this with us and I wouldn’t trade those times of being frugal to make loan payments for the world – such a great learning experience.
For what it’s worth, I’d encourage you to have a conversation with your grandchild. My mother passed some atrocious spending habits to me, and no one in my family pulled me aside to let me know what she was doing was abnormal until I was in college. By then, I had accidentally adopted some of her habits. I’m not blaming my family – at all – I just wish someone had given me the guidance I needed. I would be wealthier than I am and probably would have spared myself a lot of emotional ups and downs if I had had a better relationship with cash earlier on.
So, I’m just encouraging you to at least open the door to conversation, if you can. I’m not suggesting you necessarily subsidize anything, unless you feel comfortable helping with tuition or books, but that decision is obviously entirely up to you and dependent on many other things. Regardless, I hope everything works itself out.
Have your parents or your brother actually asked you for money or any other sort of financial help? If no, then I’d say you don’t need to be shelling out cash to them.
From my personal experience of giving money to family members who aren’t directly asking for help, it just creates tension, either between them and myself OR for me b/c I’m giving up money I could have used for myself (selfish, perhaps, but that’s how I feel).
I think other commenters are dead on about your parents – you may have to help them out one day. May not be today, but some day you might. So focus your worrying energy and financial savvy on prepping for that reality.
I think Jen (comment 10) had excellent points for you to consider as well.
Good luck! This isn’t an easy decision.
I definitely agree that until one of your family members actually asks you for money, there isn’t really an issue here. It would be incredibly insulting for you to approach your brother or parents out of the blue with the news that, after much soul searching, you’ve decided to help them out by giving them money.
That being said, if you anticipate that your parents my someday need help, quietly plan for that eventuality without telling them you are doing so.
But to respect the dignity of all involved, don’t assume your relatives are expecting (or even hoping) to get a handout.
Well, said, Rachel, and most importantly, keep preparing and staying open as a means of support but having personal limitations, even with family.
For your parents. Start planning to have them live with you. Lots of people may say – just leave them be. But if they can’t make ends meet, you won’t be able to watch them just live in poverty. (Unless you guys don’t have a decent relationship.) So start planning. Once they have a home with you, they should be able to live comfortably on social security. And they can even pay towards their expenses.
If you feel you will need them to have separate space, start looking for a home with an inlaw suite. If you can’t afford that, accept that you will have to have a place for them in your home. Life is unfair. Plan for this eventuality since it seems like your other sibling is not going to be able to help.
There was a time when people just accepted this was a normal part of the cycle of life.
And if they have a house and sell it and are able to live with you, they will have a little money to rely on.
I don’t know how expensive housing is where you live. So I have no answers if this is simply something you can’t afford.
My other recommendation would be, DO NOT buy their house (if they have one). A friend’ parents wanted him to do that. If you buy their home and move in, they will likely just continue to feel it is their home and that you live with them.
As for your brother. Don’t give him any money. Or at least not a lot of it. He will come back and ask for more. But you can always give him a 20 to make sure there is food on his table. Take him out for dinner. Bring pizza for a night in at his place. You can broach the subject of learning better money management. But if he doesn’t want to hear it, he won’t. Giving him a large chunk now, may mean you can’t help him later when he’s really desperate and he NEEDS your help. When his kids need shoes or food.
I think this is practical advice that isn’t the “cultural norm” in America, but is commonplace in other parts of the world. In many cultures, generations of families live together and take care of one another. Not only does it help save money due to economies of scale, it ensures that the older generation doesn’t get “left behind” economically.
I’d take this piece of advice with caution–what sounds doable in theory may be horrible in practice, particuarly in light of the “powdered hinney” theory. (The theory is based on: one who has powdered somebody else’s hinney (the parent) will not be able to accept abiding by rules set in place by the powdered hinney (child)). My in-laws had their mother (my dh’s grandmother) move in because she couldn’t make it on her own after Grandfather died. But you can’t have two queen bees in the same house. Grandmother wanted dishes organized her way, MIL wanted them her way. Laundry, cleaning, etc, all had the same problems. Grandma ruined pots and clothing, MIL began to be nasty to Grandma–it was not good. And they each expected FIL to take their side because for MIL, he was her husband (and to Grandma, he was her son and she brought him into the world.) The problem is, when a person has been in charge of their own home for 57 years, you can’t expect her to live under another’s rules with no say, regardless as to who owns the home on paper. Grandma wanted to still have her own autonomy and had 57 years of prior practice using her own autonomy–she felt she was being treated as a child. My MIL felt she was being disrespected when she was sacrificing so Grandma could move in–she wanted to keep as much as possible the same and was set in her ways as to how things should be organized and done in her house.
I moved in with my parents after a divorce and after a few years decided it was a wonderful way to cut costs on both sides. We split the house payments, utilities, and food, and my children have a great opportunity to know their grandparents. They are only 69 and in good shape, but as time goes on, we won’t have to worry about what to do with Mom and Dad when they get too old to live alone. Thankfully neither of us is too much of a “Queen Bee.”
[quote]The problem is, when a person has been in charge of their own home for 57 years, you can’t expect her to live under another’s rules with no say, regardless as to who owns the home on paper.[/quote]
Um, no. If autonomy was her goal, she should have been better prepared for her own retirement. I’m with MIL all the way here… as it is, Grandma is dependent upon her son and daughter-in-law’s charity. Grandma needs to buck up and learn to show her generous MIL some respect.
I really think parents moving in with an adult child in their old age will become a norm in America. Financially, it will be the only way to pull off retirement for many of them.
Personally, I am hoping for a child with enough land to put a tiny house in the back. I would love to live near- very near- but not IN the house. This would not be for saving money- but the loneliness that happens in the elderly stage.
I’m one of six kids, but I’m the only single one, and right now my parents don’t need any assistance.
My grandma sold her house and helped my uncle buy a house with a mother-in-law apartment attached to it. It’s a great arrangement. They have separate entrances but a door between their residences they can open if they want. They check up on her and bring her dinner most days (she’s 95), but she still has her own space and independence.
I have a distant, elderly relative who sold her house, and used the money to build a mother-in-law suite onto her son’s house. The son lost his job, couldn’t pay the mortgage, and they all lost their homes. And now the elderly relative has no home and no money.
I have struggled with this situation multiple times myself. I have twice bailed out family members but I was lucky that I was paid back within a year both times. At one point I had even established a family loan sub-account in my ING savings for such situations. This was early in my stage of taking control of my finances.
However, as I have progressed in my financial life and reached a number of goals, I have made a 180 on the situation. I did away with that family loan fund and have decided I won’t help them financially.
Now I am willing and eager to teach them what I have learned over the last few years and show them all the tools I have used for success, but not give them money. While this has led to little or no change on their part, I think its a form of “tough love” that has a better chance of helping them in the long term more than just giving them money.
Dave,
You aren’t obligated to give your family money. In fact, from what you say, it doesn’t seem like it would make much of a difference for them. If you still want to help them, you could think of other, non-financial ways, Could you have your parents over to dinner more often? Babysit your neices/nephews? Or find other ways to be there for them?
Talk to them about ways you can help without bankrupting yourself. You are family, but you aren’t responsible for their debts.
Yes to the excellent suggestion of indirect or non-financial assistance, especially for your parents. You can do things like buy them groceries (it was on sale and we bought too much, so here you have some) and things. My mom offered to pick up my grandfather’s meds all of the time and she’d just pick up the tab and not mention the cost or anything like that. Another thing my parents will do is take my grandmother out in her car and fill it up with gas. They pay her cell phone bill because she didn’t understand the technology so they just bought her one and added the line to their account for her.
For your brother, I think you need distance on that and when you see things get bad, again step in with non-monetary assistance especially with kid things. Kids are always going through shoes, clothes, etc. During summer, there’s school supplies. You can offer to take them shopping for school stuff, things like that. That way you’re giving directly to the kids who really shouldn’t have to suffer because of a parent’s silliness AND you can teach the kids some money-saving opportunities like sales flyers and things like that. Your brother and his wife might be a lost cause right now but you can help the kids a lot and they stand to learn the most.
Or why not take the kids for a working vacation – even if it’s just at your house for the summer? Teach them about finances and spend an extended period of time with them – perhaps having that time alone will help your brother and his wife work on their own issues as well. And maybe the kids can then impart their new knowledge to their parents. But at least they will know someone cares about their welfare and they will have the skills for their future.
Also, I agree that parents and sibilings are different, but that said, at some point your parents are also adults and also had to be responsible. So yeah, make sure they aren’t starving or freezing, but don’t give them money for trips, extra clothing, extra food, etc because they should have planned for that. As a child, you should help keep them:
1. in some kind of shelter, not necessarily their house but even a small apartment
2. fed with decent food – we aren’t talking organic fruits and $20 meats but basic grains (rice, pasta, couscous) and beans and such
3. clothed and warm – basic electricity, water, sewer, trash type bills, maybe a landline, although many cities have subsidies for elderly for a phone line.
I also like the idea of giving your siblings books and advice – its up to them to take it, but you can offer it, even as a story of your own trials and successes.
I think you are already helping your brother and your parents — by taking care of your finances so that they don’t have to worry about how they will help you make ends meet.
Family roles and scripts are easier to detect when they’re turned around. Who said you get to be the safety net for them always?
All they have to do is take care of themselves, and they won’t even do that — yet here is everyone thinking that *your* role is to double and triple up for them.
UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you loan your brother any money. Not only will you lose your money, but you’ll lose your brother as well. Giving money to somebody who has a proven track record of financial irresponsibility is like giving a drink to an alcoholic. Despite your best intentions, they simply won’t have any self control. And burdened with the guilt of not being able to repay you, they’ll eventually remove themselves from your life completely.
The best thing that you can do is to sit down with your brother and try to lovingly teach him the things that you did to get where you are today. Same goes for your parents. There’s absolutely no sense in giving them any money until they get their financial lives under control. If/when you believe that they have truly changed their habits for the better, you can GIVE (not loan) them a small amount of money in order to help give them a jump start, if you feel inclined to do so.
If your brother refuses to listen, then there’s not much else you can do to help him. You’ll just have to watch him drive his own future into the ground. Don’t stop being his brother, but don’t feel guilty for not giving him any money either. This is the path that he chose for himself.
Everyone seems to be focusing on the specific situation, so I’ll add to the conversation by stepping back a step. It seems to me that the general rule is that each of us should seek to help others be their best selves. Someone that has learned a lesson and could use a hand out of a tight spot is very different from someone that has been bailed out and gone back to the same old thing. Giving money to such a repeat offender (as it were) would be encouraging them to destroy themselves (or at least miss out on growth).
Also, I think that an individual should consider what their motivation is in giving money. People should think hard about whether they feel that they can assert their success or can control the other person using their monetary assistance. I believe in rewards for good behavior, but monetary support should be based on specific items of good behavior and treated as compensation for fulfilling those items rather than a general obligation for doing whatever pleases the giver.
I agree with this thinking. There are parents and siblings who are destructive in their relationships and with their finances. It helps no one in the situation to continually bail them out and enable them. But if someone is having a tough time despite trying to be responsible then help them out to the fullest extent possible. And there’s no point giving money if you then want to spend your time lecturing the recipient. Either it is given freely as a gift with no demands, or else keep your wallet shut.
This is such a difficult subject and at the same time so personal.
For us, the question arises about one of my parents (divorced) who did an AWESOME job raising us on a low single income and who started her pensionable career quite late. She was self employed when our parents were together, then worked administrative contract work to ensure the bills were paid and we were fed WELL and we had heat, hydro and a roof over our head. She even paid off her house in the high interest ’80s.
But now, she’s soldiering on to age 65 to try to get as much pension as she can. She won’t talk finances with me but I feel she may need some help in retirement. We are at a place where we can help, but I think her pride won’t allow her to discuss her now, future, or to accept help. I feel helpless. I want to help if she needs it as she did SO much for us with so little when we were dependets. Perhaps I should write a readers story for you to get feedback from you and your followers …
We approach that as suggesting ways for them to save money. It might be by getting on a family cell phone plan and splitting the bill. Down the road, it might be offering to let them move in with you and charging substantially less than a market rent.
It’s less damaging to pride if they’re still paying something, but you can look for ways to quietly split costs.
If your mom does not want to talk about her retirement finances, you can’t make her. What you can do, is let her know you’re available if she ever wants to discuss them and that if she needs help you will be there for her. You don’t have to know the concrete numbers to let her know you’ll be there for her if she needs you. If you’re really worried about it, then I would follow one of the earlier suggestions – start a savings account for any future help you think she might need. That way if she ever does come to you, you’ll be ready.
Also, it sounds like you have a frugal, savvy mother. She took care of you and your siblings on a single income, paid off her house and now she’s working to get the most out of her retirement. She may be in better shape than you think. Anyone staring retirement in the face, especially after the last few years of instability, would worry about the money lasting.
Thankfully, I have not had to endure this with my family, but I know someone who has. A brother and sister had been bailing out their sister for years. Eventually, they got fed up with her act and cut her off. Within 6 months she changed her ways and is doing a lot better financially now. It was the best decision, and she actually did change. That does not always happen, but in this case it worked.
Like many things, this depends on values and culture and family expectations.
I’ve seen my parents take care of my grandparents and great-grandparents, so I can’t imagine not doing the same for them when it comes the time that they need my help. It’s just what we do, and I don’t think pride would be an issue– if anything, it would be more of a shame for me if I didn’t.
My brother is doing great financially, much better than me, and I don’t think he’ll ever need my help, but if he ever did (some sort of disaster) I’d be inclined to lend a hand, especially because he has 3 kids. He’s a very responsible person, so I’m sure no help would be wasted.
I agree with the other commentors that you shouldn’t be giving your family money. People don’t value others’ money as they do their own and your family doesn’t sound like they’re ready to make major changes.
I also want to suggest that Dave (or J.D.) shouldn’t feel guilty about this decision or feel like a jerk. You’re being entirely reasonable, want to help your family and are trying to find the right way to help. That’s worthy of applause, not guilt.
I am sure many of you are in the same situation, but what do you do when you have a sibling who absolutely has no desire to make the sacrifices necessary to live on the money she receives (from disability, which is a whole different issue) who is bleeding your retired/close to retiring parents dry? My parents (1 retired, 1 close to retirement, but out of work on medical leave) live like misers, but give thousands of dollars a year to my sister. She is recently separated, but this has been happening for basically all her adult life. She cries and says she needs money for medical bills, prescriptions, food, gas, after blowing her money on god knows what.
I’ve tried many times to convince them that they aren’t helping her by giving her this money. Shes 29, but hasn’t had to learn how to be an adult since shes always had this safety net. Any advice from others in this situation? I can and do refuse to help my sister, but if my parents end up in dire need because of her, I will have to help them!
I’m in a similar situation. I’m more inclined to help my parents (who raised and took care of me, paid for most of my college) than my siblings. But my alcoholic brother lives with my mother who leeches off both her and my father. I’ve often found money I’ve given to my mother ends up being spent on my brother. Along with other things I’m not going to go into, it has put my mother in a precarious financial situation. It makes me really sad, but as long as this co-dependent relationship exists I am unable to help my mother out financially.
We have a similar situation with my husband’s sister and their father. My mom-in-law (who kept track of their finances) passed away leaving the his sister with control of everything (his father is not well). While we expect that she should be compensated for the help she is providing, we also know that she’s using his money to support herself (unemployed, under water in her house, expensive toys). While mentally we are preparing to learn he is broke, we really can’t contribute to his expenses at this point (2 college kids). It gets verrry tricky.
I think this is the worst situation of all. My grandparents have always helped out everyone else in my family. I’ve heard my cousin/sibling refer to the “bank of grandma and grandpa”. And where did all this money come from? They remortgaged their house. They saved nothing for retirement except what my grandfather’s company put in (very little). They gave away everything they had if anyone needed anything. Some days I’m angry at them for not realizing they have to take care of themselves too and some days I’m mad at my family for taking advantage of the nicest, most generous people I’ve ever met. Mostly, the second one.
The worst part, is that even now, with my grandfather laid off and them trying to make do on social security, they still give my uncle money. He’s laid off too. And he has health problems that make it hard to work. But it’s ok, he wants to buy a hot dog stand. And in turn, he gives money to his daughter. Her and her guy are both out of work you see. Because she ran off with a guy from the internet and neither of them has a HS diploma. My grandparents also mostly support my cousin who has a learning disability. (I can’t be angry at him because he doesn’t understand.) Technically he lives with his parents, but spends 95% of his time with my grandparents. Oh, and my other cousin just moved back in with them too. No idea what’s going on there though.
So yeah, hard to justify giving them money with so many “leaks”. So I don’t. They’d never take it anyway. I do occasionally buy them grocery gift cards though, for christmas and birthdays and such of course. They make my grandmother REALLY happy. But what’s really gratifying is that my grandma will actually talk money with me. We can sit down and she’ll tell me what they have and the things they’re looking at cutting to make everything work. And I can make suggestions and she listens. Because they’re not stupid with their money, they’ve never lived beyond their means…they’re just generous to a fault. I didn’t use to fully understand that phrase….but I do now.
MrP has a similar issue.
Lecturing has not helped. We even sent BIL to school for a semester to start retraining for a new job, helped him relocate to an area with a better economy, to no avail.
As “rich brother” MrP feels obligated to help. We get very occasional requests for help now, but think there may be more in the future. Our solution was to budget for future requests. We set up a “family emergency” savings account, to which we make small automatic contributions. Since the account is in MrP’s name and not mine, he can take the money at any time without involving me so we don’t fight about it.
Hopefully some day your brother will decide to change his ways, but don’t count on it. If you must do something, then budget for it.
Unless parents have been abusive in some way, I think children are obligated to help them in their old age. We have given money to siblings over the past 10 years.
One family reached their bottom when they had to ask us to bail them out, and the act of asking for help was a real kick in the backside for them to start living responsibly.
Another family has had uncovered medical issues come up with their child. I don’t think there was so much irresponsibility as just outright need.
The third relative is the most troublesome to us because 1) no children are involved and 2)she has received far more from us than the others. Over the past 5 years we’ve given her more than 40k, a good bit of which has gone to pay vet bills for her cats. THing is, it was either cough up the money or visit her in the mental institution where she’d already spent years of her adult life.
I’m not sure we’ll do it again though. This last time (about 2 years ago) we gave her a little more than 20k, and she told us this was it, that she had learned to live responsibly and she even hoped she’d pay us back someday. Ashamed to come back to us, I suppose, She’s now hitting up other relatives for 500 here, a thousand there to pay for her vet bills.
Because we’re in the best position financially, we fear she’ll be back. We’ll cross that bridge if we come to it, but with our kids approaching college age, I doubt there are any big paydays from us in her future. Ultimately, we can’t take responsibility for her mental health.
Provide nothing but moral support, suggestions if asked for, limited help for nieces and nephews (e.g. you’ll match scholarship money if they go out and get one for college) if you desire to. Nothing you do will solve their ultimate problems. They would pauper you, say they were sorry, then turn and try to find someone else to pauper. They are not evil or mean, it’s just they aren’t willing to change.
I’ve a similar issue in my family. I cannot provide financial help to my mother because in essense all that happens is I am funneling money to my brother. I’ve put food in my mother’s fridge, she gives it to my brother directly or he comes over and eats it. I’ve paid off her heating oil bill, suddenly they’re going to shut off his electricity and what I saved her goes to stave off his crisis. I provided funds for her to pay off her car loan, his car is in the shop so she gave him my money for his repairs and continues to pay on her loan. My mother went from having hundreds of thousands in the bank fifteen years ago to living on nothing but social security now. Its been a slow, but consistent bleeding.
Who do you blame? The parent who won’t let their child take responsibility for their bad decisions or the child who assumes the parents will always be their to bail them out so they don’t have to worry about the decisions they make? It’s not like my brother is a horrible guy or a drug addict or threatens or demands the money from her. Nor is it that my mother is a fool who doesn’t know better and doesn’t understand that he’s draining her money away.
I suspect that Dave’s, and most people who have such issues, siblings or parents in financial trouble are not evil, nasty, or particularly stupid. That’s part of the reason its so hard to believe that if you help they’ll be unable to get back on their feet and turn things around. But they won’t. It’s like they’re robots on a track who fell over, you pick them up and right them, and they happily chug along the same path to destruction they were following when they fell.
They’re adults. They make their decisions. With my family my decision is not to participate in their poor actions. It’s not fun, it’s not easy, but it’s necessary for my own families sake.
My recommendation is that if you decide to help, you make it clear how much you will help, how that help will end, and you stick to it. For example, you could decide it’s worth it to provide housing for your parents. So you set them up in an apartment and pay the rent and you understand you’re doing that until they pass. But if you want them to pay for water and electricity, don’t pay it. Similarly, you could tell your brother you’re willing to give him your car (assuming he may need one) since you’re getting a new one anyway. One time thing, no strings attached. You will need to determine what you are willing to give up, because you will be giving it up. Just don’t become their new meal ticket.
I’ve been fortunate, to a point. When my brother was having financial issues, I was too, so I was in no place to have to make a decision about helping him.
My parents have always been fairly careful with their money; my dad has a pension that will continue after his death so my mom will be well looked after. My mom has less, but her money is their “fun” money, and I know they expect it to cover their travel plans for another 10 years or so – hopefully they are healthy that long.
As a Canadian, thankfully health care is not a major consideration, but both my husband and I are prepared for one or both of my parents to come live with us at some point, we even built our new home with that in mind. It would likely be due to the loss of one of them, perhaps combined with a health issue, rather than financial, but even if it were financial, we would do it without question. They did so much for me!
It’s a very tough decision to have to make for some people though, and can really add strain to your own relationship with your spouse (luckily my husband adores my parents!).
For the brother, until he’s ready to face his finances and make some changes, any help you give will be a waste of money. Don’t bother.
The parents are a different story, because no one’s going to feel comfortable letting their parents struggle if they can help. Since it sounds like the parents are still working, now might be a good idea to say something along the lines of “I was looking over my finances to plan my own retirement and I was wondering if you would mind telling me how you are planning for yours?”.
That way it’s more of comparing notes on a common situation instead of grilling them on their finances. You can share your tips and they can share their concerns if they have any. Encourage them to save more if necessary and make contingency plans of your own if their plans don’t look like enough.
I’d probably start a savings account of some sort for both the parents and the brother’s children. Like a 2nd emergency fund in case something crucial comes up that you feel you have to help with.
If the parents are sickly or have the potential to be (health issues that might get a lot worse if they don’t take care of themselves properly), some sort of long-term care insurance policy might be an option.
This question is to JD: does your brother read this blog? Is he not offended/hurt by your admissions? I wonder what his side of this story is?
I personally believe in helping family, slowly though I am learning that you can only do so much.
My advice is to do up to a certain point, without it hurting you financially.
I like giving books on personal finance as well.
I manage my sister’s finances. She was so out of sorts she couldn’t even get a bank account. Now, she sends all her paychecks to me. I’ve automated all her accounts and she has a pre-paid credit card that I periodically put spending money on for her. We’re slowly getting her out of debt, only need to pay the bank and her student loans (about 8k left) and then I’ll slowly turn things back over to her.
Wow. I’m curious, how are you ensuring that she doesn’t just turn around and make the same mistakes after you get her out of debt? This is an interesting solution, but is she learning anything through the experience? (For example, is she sitting down with you while you make a repayment plan, etc?)
While I’m glad that this is working out for you, I have to say I’m stunned that anyone would a) suggest this and b) go along with it.
Repeat after me – you’re not your sister’s dad!
I’m a softie, but I think if your parents need financial help and you can afford to help them, then you should. I don’t think this help should come at the expense of your own family, but I see nothing wrong and everything right about helping out parents that need it.
The brother situation is a little stickier to me. I have 2 little boys and I would hope they would help each other one day should the need arise. I have a brother with mental health issues and I would totally help him out if he needed it, as much as I could. Like I said before, I would never sacrifice my family’s well-being, but I would do as much as I could.
I don’t think you have an “obligation” to help your family. I think if you want to you should, and if you don’t want to you shouldn’t. Do what feels right and what you can afford and I really don’t think you can go wrong.
I think the problem with that thoughtline is that how do you define what does and doesn’t affect your family. Obviously, if you give the money to your brother your family won’t have it to spend. Do you wait until your kids’ college account and your own retirement accounts are fully funded before helping him? If not, at what point do you say “Ok, this person needs this money for XYZ more than my kids will need it for college, and more than I need it for retirement.” ? I expect most people here are in a position where they have *some* extra, but not infinite extra, and how do you decide “need” in those cases?
I think of when my inlaws asked us for $5k for a down payment on their house. I had it in savings, but it was ALL I had in savings. It was hard to say no because they didn’t understand why I wouldn’t help them when technically I could. But what if I lost my job (or worse) the day after giving it to them? I couldn’t put my family in that precarious position, even though I did technically have the money to help them.
It is those sorts of pro/con lists that make situations like this hard.
I guess, in my mind, I would say that if I had an emergency fund, enough to house, feed and clothe my kids and was saving enough to pay for their educations and my retirement, I would feel perfectly good about helping out my family and/or in-laws. Like right now, if my family needed help (they don’t) my husband and I are a fine situation to provide it. I only hope they’d feel comfortable enough to ask. (They wouldn’t.) However, if our situation changed, (my husband lost his job, we had another kid, etc.) we’d have to stop. I guess I’d make that clear upfront.
But that’s just me, I think the answer would be different for everyone, that’s why I don’t think people have an “obligation” to help their families, I think it’s about your own level of comfort and how much money you’re willing and able to part with.
Maybe a good example would be I’d take the money we donate each month and give it them instead. Now, if my brother bought a plasma TV or something, I’d certainly reevalute. Or if, like the poster below, they started asking for large amounts often, I’d say no, I would have no choice but to say no. So I guess I’m thinking more along the lines of a couple hundred bucks a month to help with groceries and utilities, rather then big expenses like property taxes or car loans.
But, honestly, I think I would actually relish the opportunity to help people out that have given me so much over the years. But I have an excellent relationship with my family and I know that’s not true of everyone. The type of relationship you have would certainly be a deciding factor, I would think.
Mary, that’s what we have done – we made the limits clear up front.
I have a nephew to whom we offered a family ‘scholarship.” I offered it in a letter that set out the terms (payment made directly to the school, a minimum GPA requirement, amount paid per semester, max number of semesters…) and also that said that we intend to pay it for 4 full years of college, but if I lost my job or one of us got really sick or something, we might have to stop the payments. It’s worked fine so far.
I think that’s awesome and an absolutely brilliant approach, Shalom!
Ironically, I find myself asking the same question today. In my case, it is my BIL and SIL who are asking for the money.
They are a very low-income family with 2 young children 3 years old and 1 1/2 years old. BIL has been on leave from work for depression since last July. SIL was on unpaid maternity leave from July 2008 until September 2010 when the government paid for her to go to school. She has since finished school and is now working.
Last week they asked us for $800 because their house insurance was up for renewal and had to be paid immediately for the entire year. We loaned them the money, worked out a payment plan and everything. I said to SIL when I gave her the cash, let us know if you’re caught in this situation again. Preferable to borrow from us (even though we have to take a cash advance against our credit card) than to go to a payday loan place, which they have done in the past.
Fast forward to yesterday, when they ask (by email) for an additional $600! I was shocked but heard their story on how they arranged for the mortgage payment to be delayed but it didn’t happen so the money came out of the account and there wasn’t enough left for car and other bill payments. We reluctantly decided to loan them more money. Now up to $1400.
This morning, yes, this morning. I get ANOTHER EMAIL asking for another $300. Saying SIL was sick with the flu last week and didn’t get paid as much as they hoped and they now have no money for groceries for the next 2 weeks or gas to get to work.
Husband and I both want to put our foot down and just say no. BUT they have 2 little kids who need to eat, and whose parents’ financial situation is not their fault. And if they can’t get gas to get to work, that will lead to more low paychecks.
However, Husband and I have been trying to pay off our own debt. We don’t have this money sitting around, and we have to take cash advances on our credit card to make it happen.
They say they will pay it back, and have even laid out dates and amounts they will pay on. I know they will pay it back eventually but I know it won’t happen as quickly as the optimistic payment schedule they have proposed.
Right now, I think we will say no to lending them MORE money. But we may dig through our cupboards and come up with ingredients for a few meals to tide them over, and maybe get a gas gift certificate.
I think you will probably feel that we’ve already gone too far… but I’m still asking.
How are they going to pay back the $1400? How could they pay back $1700? The larger it gets the worse in debt they will be and the harder to pay it back.
If you are in debt yourself, you don’t HAVE money to be giving to other people. Giving/loaning money is a luxury. The government/public safety net may not be as big as in other countries, but we do have it. They need to look into WIC and other public programs and hit up a food bank to get them through times when they’re short.
I might have the money to help out DH’s relatives, but our only debt is the mortgage and we have substantial savings. If you’re in debt you cannot afford to give money away. You are tapped out and in bad straits yourself. Take care of yourself first. No consumer debt, 6-12 months of emergency savings etc.
Also… when we had less money and gave, said relative went and spent it on luxuries we’d been denying ourselves. That kind of put a damper on our generosity.
Those credit card cash advances are going to be charged higher interest rates than normal retail purchases. You have been beyond generous. But this could quickly derail your financial stability if continued at this pace. I love that you are so generous as to get into your own cupboards. But you should also point them to a food pantry and government assistance. They might also need to consider more afforable housing. Renting might be a better option for them right now.
Perhaps in-kind contribution is the way to go? I bet you can come up with a few ideas that will make sure the kids aren’t malnourished without requiring you to hand their parents cash. If you are close geographically, invite the family over for a meal and/or offer to babysit the kids on a semi-regular basis so that you can feed them.
Does the family live someplace where food aid is available? Sounds like they might qualify.
Good luck!
Alicen, if I send you an email asking for money can I get on this gravy train too?
It’s great that your heart is in the right place but “loaning” money to family via credit card advances when you have your own debts to pay is silly.
Wow. It was very generous of you to want to help and it sounds like it comes at a high cost if you took a loan on a credit card to do it. It does not sound like you can afford to take care of them further. Of course you worry about the kids. I would tell them “I’m so sorry, we borrowed to lend to you and can’t borrow more, if you don’t have money to eat here is where the nearest food shelf is.” They sound like they are not in a good place and money seems to be a symptom of not being able to take care of themselves well… but money isn’t the only problem, and you can’t solve their underlying problem.
It is very hard to see people you love in pain and I’m sorry you are going through this. If you have to borrow to give, do not give another penny. Their problem has already become your problem. And yes, it is hard to see people in pain. You absolutely don’t have the ability to keep them afloat. Drive them to the food shelf, offer to take the kids for a few hours if you can and want to.
This comes from seeing my family be seriously dysfunctional with money. There are mental health and addiction issues underlying it and money can’t solve those. Unless your family is becoming self-sufficient and you can see it changing, you’re supporting a dysfunctional pattern and your best intentions of giving may have a bad effect on them and you.
Again, you clearly have good intentions! I’m sorry your family is in such a tough place. Don’t put your own family financially at risk to try to ease others’ pain. It is painful to see people in a tough spot, and that may be what you have to do right now. It can be hard to see that.
I agree 100% with JD!! My husband and i have a similar situation with his family. His brother is like JD brother. We have tried too many times to help him and all he wants is cash. My husbands parents are the same way too. It’s quite sad. They earn more than us yet never have enough money. Recently my husbands family asked for $10,000 as they knew we had saved cash to fix our porch and reroof our home. we refused. But offered to help in other ways but they only wanted the cash. They have not spoken to us in a month because of it. My husband and I are releaved in a way as we do not have to worry about them constantly asking for money. Yet sad as money should never come between family.
I’m going to have to read each and every one of the comments today because I could BE Dave, except for a few changes like:
My brother and sister-in-law have 4 kids and neither works, they haven’t declared bankruptcy because they take money from my parents.
And…my parents recently had another baby so I have a 3 year old brother who they are taking care of despite not having retirement funds (I did make them get term life insurance policies tho that will last until the baby is 21). They still work full time in their 60s and have yet to finish paying off their mortgage, any spare money they have goes to my brother and his family.
At least my sister seems to be doing okay, and oddly she is the one I would help out the most if she needed it because she…doesn’t need me? Does that make any sense?
Suze Orman says in one of her books that you owe your parents if they need money, but not your siblings. An interesting distinction!
Your mom is in her 60s and had a baby 3 years ago?
Yes. Which…I hope people don’t do digging because it’s rare enough to take the anonymity out of internet posting.
Needless to say, they don’t make personal finance books about what to do when your spendthrift, not-saving, retirement age parents decide to have a toddler in their 60s.
And since I’m the only sibling with sense, they have named me executor of their estate and full custodian if something happens to them before he’s 21 (or 18…I forget now).
Maybe they can get their own reality show. Financial problems solved!
I have a ton of friends in this position – not quite the same age gap, but the exact same responsibility gap. One of my coworkers had her mom and teen sister living with her and her husband when she was only 23 or 24, because she and her husband were the only responsible adults in the entire family. Another has an infant of her own and a 6 year old sibling she fully expects to end up raising. Another ended up as the foster parent of her own younger siblings after her parents imploded.
Your parents and your little brother are lucky to have you.
My SIL has helped us out on a few occasions. We are paying her back as we can. She’s actually told us NOT to pay her back until we have a substantial emergency fund set up. Over the past three years, each of us has been laid off at least twice, draining our emergency fund to almost zero before we get employed again. Each time we get caught up, (trying not to jinx) one of us gets laid off, AGAIN. Thankfully, we’ve both been employed somewhat comfortably the past several months, so we’re paying off both vehicles in the next three months, one will be paid off this month! Then we’re cutting back on paying down stuff and we’ll be throwing that money towards a healthy emergency fund. And then we’ll sit down with her and determine the repayment plan. So we’re thankful that we’ve been blessed to have a family member who realizes our financial issues are largely out of our control and not due to extravagant spending.
I sympathize with the parental dilemma, and also the mental illness angle brought up by “Mom of five” — It’s tough dealing with people who can’t be reasoned with.
I’ve always felt it would be easier if my parents would just turn their affairs over to someone else. If it had to me, I’d do it, but really any sort of custodial oversight would change their lives so much. That said, there’s a wide chasm between ‘having a problem’ and being ‘ready to put your fate in someone else’s hands.’ I guess with addicts they call it “hitting rock bottom.” I’m afraid that with my parents, it’ll be called “foreclosure.”
My sibs and I have formed a unified front: no money without control. If they want our help, we’re willing, but only if they do what we say (i.e. move out of ridiculously large, ridiculously mortgaged house etc.) It makes for some very hard conversations, but to us, the situation is clear: they’re eventually going to find rock bottom. The only remaining question is, “how much of our money will they spend getting there?” Obviously, we’re trying to keep that figure as low as possible.
I feel the pain here.
I like that motto “no money without control”. That is sort of like what my family and siblings look at it too.
Leave your pride outside, in the house we talk openly and honestly, its a lot of tough love, but family is so much more important than any money in the world and any money problems that everybody would rather fix the money problems before it happens and before it gets in the way of family.
I understand the sentiment behind “no money without control,” but you should think about the flip side of that. If you are controlling their lives, then it’s no longer simple generosity. You are asking that they accept your rules and values over their own.
This is just to say that if you demand “control” over your relatives’ lives in exchange for money, don’t expect effusions of gratitude from them.
I wouldn’t help an adult sibling* who consistently made poor financial choices but I would help my parents, regardless of their financial choice. If their financial skills were terrible, I would pay some of their bills myself (electric, water, garbage for example). If their skills were good, and they simply did not have enough money, I would offer a set amount each month or gift cards to various stores each month- the pharmacy, grocery, gas station.
I would go over their Medicare and any supplemental insurance plans and make sure they had adequate coverage, particularly for long term care and prescription drugs. I would also ask to be kept informed of their health and any treatment plans.
*: I would ,however, help an adult sibling who was sick or otherwise incapable of taking care of themselves. My BIL is mentally ill, and we may have to assume some of his bills, along with my husband’s other siblings, if his condition deteriorates. He’s pretty stable now-holds down a job, pays his bills on time, saves his money- but that can turn on a dime, I’m sorry to say.
Family and money — one of my favorite topics.
I grew up lower-middle class and chose to attend a private college on the east coast. Between that and grad school, I’ve accumulated a fair amount of debt.
When I got out of undergrad, I lost a job and ended up defaulting on about $10k of credit card debt. My parents paid the bills to get the creditors off of my back, and I’m slowly paying them back. They’re of limited means, so I figure I owe them in retirement — I’ve seen their 401k statements, and helped dad select some better (read: low fee) funds to invest in. For his age, his balance scares me. OTOH, if they both collect full social security and have the house paid off before retiring, I think they’ll be fine.
My wife’s family, OTOH, is a complete financial disaster. My brother-in-law (also married into the family) makes a good amount of money, and I’ve seen my wife’s immediate family run to him for financial support and what not.
One thing I made clear to my wife before we got married is that if she expects us to part with cash for her immediate family, I’m not the right guy. She understands, but is in a bit of denial with just about how bad her family really does manage their personal lives, although she accepts it a little bit more and more each day.
For instance:
My brother-in-law (her 34 year old brother) had eviction papers filed on him twice in three months. His vehicle got re-poed, and has his license suspended for not having any auto insurance. He couldn’t afford plane tickets to our wedding. Sounds bad, right? Imagine my shock when I found out he makes about $5k less than I do, and lives in a really cheap city. How’d I know? He left a paystub in our car by accident.
My father-in-law was going through a divorce with his second wife, and decided to quit his job and move 500 miles to live in said affluent brother- and sister-in-law’s basement, which is actually pretty close to us.
My wife has asked if she could take dad out to lunch every now and then, because he doesn’t have much money and is going through a lot. I told her no. This might sound cold, but he chose to quit his job without much of a financial safety net. I realize he’s going through a lot, but most guys don’t quit a decent paying job. He has to reap what he sowed. I told her if he got laid off or something, that’s one thing, but quitting your job and expecting to mooch off of family? No way.
Before I catch too much flack for my hard line stance, I should point out that my wife and I both have significant student loan debt, and after 1.5 years of marriage, have *finally* started to build an emergency fund. We also want to buy a house, in a region where housing isn’t cheap. So, quite honestly, we really don’t have extra cash just to hand out.
So, my advice to the OP is this: If your family are hard-working people who manage their money well, but just happen to have low-paid jobs, then help out when you want. But if they mismanage their funds or just generally don’t have a clue, don’t send them cash. You wouldn’t throw good money after bad in business, don’t do it in your personal life either.
isn’t it crazy to find out someone who’s always poormouthing you actually makes as much as you? My most chaotic sibling, always broke, always on the brink of homelessness, was making more money than us for YEARS. But they decided health insurance was too expensive, so every health issue put them on the brink.
Would you be willing to help out your own parents had they not been there to help you out financially (paid your creditors)?
Not only do I not comprehend the refusal to let your wife feed her poor father, I don’t understand why it’s your decision. Shouldn’t that have been a discussion?
And while I don’t know you or how you think, have you considered that divorce is an incredibly painful experience? Yes, your FIL chose to leave a job. If he did it to be closer to his only remaining family, it sounds like a good decision. Would you prefer he be lonely?
It sounds like we come from a similar background, and I know that many people who fought their way out of near-poverty have little patience for others who don’t do the same. But everyone’s different, and people have their own problems that they may not tell you about or you may not fully comprehend.
Imelda,
You bring up some good points, so I’ll give you my best shot:
1. With her family, it’s never “just this once.” How does one manage expectations? You buy lunch the first time, and now you start creating expectations. Since I don’t want to fall into that trap, it’s easier just to say no the first time.
2. Combined, we have $110,000 in student loan debt. We’ve just started building our emergency fund. You tell me whether or not we have extra cash to spare.
3. As far as being lonely goes… my father-in-law has an adopted daughter (who is still a minor), biological son (said 34-year-old I mentioned) and two grand-daughters back “home.” So he doesn’t have to be lonely if he doesn’t want to. I just happen to have a very cynical view on things, but if moving out to the area where both of your daughters are “of means” (and away from those who aren’t) means not being lonely, well then…
4. Is it ever a good idea to move out to a really expensive city with no real means of supporting yourself? Yes, he can find work in his field, and while it pays decent for the midwest, on certain parts of the east coast, it’s just struggling to get by.
This is something I think about a lot, as my parents near retirement age. My sister and I are in our early 30s. I am in the early stages of financial stability, while my sister continues to rely on my parents for financial support.
As people live longer and longer, I assume that eventually one or both of us will need to help out our parents either financially or logistically (with health matters and daily living). At this point I’m assuming it will be me.
Part of why financial independence is important to me is that some of my relatives remain dependent on parents or spouses for money, and it does not usually turn out well.
My brother and his wife are financially responsible now, but weren’t always so. Their credit plummeted, she bounced some checks, their ARM mortgage rose. They also had intended to have 2 kids, but the second pregnancy resulted in twins, and now they have 3 kids.
My brother asked me to cosign a loan several years ago. It was tough, but I had to say no. He’s never asked for cash outright. I would probably give them gift cards for groceries and gas before I’d lend cash.
I do feel obligated to help my mom out. She’s been disabled for some time and does have SS, she also pet sits a bit in her home. I put $200 monthly in an account for her, she occasionally uses it to help pay for medical/dental bills. I’m glad I can help my mom out.
I would have serious misgivings about lending money out to people who are spiraling downward financially. It’s like throwing good money after bad. Unless they’re facing homelessness or seriously dire straights, I’d have to say no.
Somewhere, there was a blog post about this, but I can’t remember off the top of my head who wrote it.
The gist was this: Don’t help someone on a downward spiral. Wait for them to hit bottom and help them when they’re on the way back up.
If I had a relative who had been very financially irresponsible in the past, but had obviously made major changes to their lifestyle and were trying to get their life in order, I would help them. On the other hand, if someone clearly has not learned from their mistakes and is trying to use me to postpone the inevitable crash, I would not help them.
It’s always tough. There’s no fast and easy rule of thumb for when you should help relatives. But ultimately, there is potential to do real good for someone if they are legitimately struggling to reform. (I’ve been the beneficiary of such help, and I was able to use it to turn my life around. But that was only because I’d already had the epiphany that I couldn’t continue the way I had been.)
The only family member that I wouldn’t help under any circumstances would be my sister. And that’s just because she is so manipulative that she has actually pretended to be trying to turn her life around to get money out of relatives, and then turned around and blown it the same as the rest of the help she’s been given. At this point, I think it’s safe to say that she has no desire to live any other way. I don’t feel guilty or worried about her, because the world is full of suckers, and I’m sure she’ll just move on to the next one when she can’t get anything out of me.
I think the article was on The Simple Dollar. “What is the ‘Bottom’?”
http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2011/05/06/what-is-the-bottom/
Thanks Ash, I’m pretty sure that’s it. 🙂
Only give money if you do not expect to get it back, and you only think of it as a gift. Otherwise you will have hard feelings when the family does not really help themselves with your gift.
My situation was a few years ago when my wife’s family was having many medical bills. We gave them a few thousand dollars to help with the bills. The money may or may not have been used for bills at that time, but a few months later there was a brand new HDTV in the family room, that cost somewhere in the neighborhood of what we gave. This was rather deflating to say the least. We still have a good relationship, because we looked at it as simply a gift, they did not use the money as we had thought they should, but it ultimately was their decision. They still struggle, but we gave them money that they squandered and now we will not gift them again.
Most of my immediate family is irresponsible with money as well. My older sister is well off, but my parents are swimming in debt and my younger siblings are always looking to be bailed out of some kind of trouble.
My older sister and I both have the same policy when it comes to dealing with family: practical – not financial – help. That means when my brother asked me for $500, I said no freaking way. But when he ran out of formula for my niece, I took him and my sister-in-law food shopping. I don’t even trust him with gift cards at stores because I once found out they were being used to buy cigarettes instead of food. I was more than a little upset about that.
Anyway – I don’t feel like a jerk about your brother. It hurts me way less to know that I’m there for a crisis than it would to know that the help I gave to prevent the crisis was wasted. I’ve been in both situations at this point and I know which is better for everyone involved. And no matter how much your family might resent you for not helping, or how much you resent them for not getting their acts together – it is NOTHING compared to the complicated feelings and epic levels of resentment that arise from family not paying back loans or feeling like they owe you something (even if they do).
In the case of your parents, it’s a different story. I don’t know what to tell you. In your position, I’d feel like I had to help. But I don’t know the full picture and I’m also not you.
I really think it depends on the situation. My husband’s siblings are very financially responsible and if they ever had an emergency, I’d be the first to lend them money. Although, I’m sure both of them have an emergency fund in place. My own brother, on the other hand, I wouldn’t have given a dime. He spent money like it was water. He passed away two years ago and left behind a significant amount of debt.
It’s all about the choices that we make. You can’t force someone to make good money decisions, and you only blur their decision making process when you throw money at the problem.
Millionaire Next Door ( http://www.amazon.com/Millionaire-Next-Door-Surprising-Americas/dp/1563523302 ) has an interesting chapter on this subject; I believe they call it Economic Outpatient Care. The bottom line is those who live off their wealthier relatives tend to underperform.
I see this in my own family. I am one of three kids. I have IL of the same social class as my parents and my one brother is single. My other brother has wealth in-laws that help them with things. However, the “help” doesn’t always seem that helpful from my point of view.
They helped them finance a house they could have never qualified for with a regular bank loan and as a result have been pretty house poor ever since. They give them late model, but gas hogging SUV’s, but the still need to insure and put gas in them. SIL has a free country club membership to take take the kids to the pool with, but most likely it will cost more to drive across town to it than it would to pay to go to a public pool closer.
Anyway in the long run paying their own way seems to me that it would be cheaper and more dignified way to go, not as “fancy”.
Funny how GRS’s holier-than-thou “oh, everyone should donate to charity, it’s important” crowd turns into a “oh, not that guy, he doesn’t deserve it!” crowd as soon as you put a face to your charitable donation.
Oh, it turns out that a lot of the people who need charity have made mistakes or have bad habits? Who would have guessed…
I don’t see any contradiction. People are saying to help parents and to give in-kind rather than money. Most charities also provide goods and services in-kind rather than just giving out money.
In-kind transfers and targeted transfers have many benefits that straight monetary transfers lack. That’s why they’re used even though they take more effort and money than just giving cash transfers. So long as they’re not completely fungible they change consumption patterns.
People are also saying to make sure your ducks are in a row before you give money to family, the same holds true for charity unless you have very strong religious beliefs otherwise. (And even Dave Ramsey says it’s ok to take care of yourself first before tithing.)
I can’t speak for anyone else, but my two charities of choice are the Toronto Humane Soceity and Care Canada.
One gives money to shelter animals and find good homes for them, and the ohter feeds starving children in under developed nations (without bibles given out with the help).
Neither of these recipients of my donations made “bad choices” except being born in the wrong place at the wrong time.
So, this doesn’t make people here hypocritical, necessarily.
It’s easy to look at distant children as blameless victims of their own situation, both because they are children and because you don’t know their individual stories. Animals as well look blameless, because they’re incapable of moral decisions. As such, you’ve managed to skirt the issue — you’ll never have to give money to someone who might not “deserve” it because you only donate to charities that that help the morally uncorrupted.
Meanwhile, your own brother is someone you’ve no doubt seen have moral failings. I know I’ve seen this in my brother. He’s flawed and sometimes needs help.
It seems a sort of perversion of the charitable spirit to put everyone who needs help through a moral screening process first before deciding whether or not they’ll be worthy of your assistance. Certainly there are limits here and someone could ask, “oh, then you’d be ok giving to the ‘suicide bomber family relief fund’?” or something, and no, I wouldn’t, but I feel like that’s a far cry from helping out my own brother who’s bad with money. It seems that the filters people are applying are a lot tighter than that, and you don’t have to much wrong to get put in the ‘no longer deserving of help’ category.
I don’t mean to pick on you with this comment, Adam, it’s a commentary on the overwhelming response towards Dave’s brother in general.
It’s sound policy. It’s called “avoiding moral hazard.” Sometimes the non-market changes we make cause problems precisely because we’ve made those changes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard (It’s also a reason that some insurance markets fail.)
Many people don’t believe that government should intervene at all in cases that produce moral hazard. So no EITC. But even Ron Paul thinks we should feed hungry kids because feeding them doesn’t cause them to stop working. They don’t have problems of moral hazard. That makes WIC popular.
There’s nothing immoral about it. We all have constrained choices on where to spend our time and money and some folks care about the efficiency of their dollars. You can’t save everyone and some folks prefer not to waste money in ways that end up hurting people long-term.
Nicole’s points are great.
I actually don’t prefer to help people that made or continue to make extremely bad choices, which is why my charity goes to those two places.
There are hundreds of other charities with similar recipients of people that need help and in my opinion deserve it. What is wrong with that, exactly? I’m not sure why this is such a problem.
Others may be more lenient/forgiving and donate to people who are where they are primarily due to bad choices, I choose not to when I can.
As for my brother, I don’t help him. I would help his children and would never let them go hungry or without basic needs however, and I buy them presents whenever I see them. It’s not their fault if their parents aren’t able to support them. They didn’t choose their parents or decide to be born.
If, after his children are self supporting, my brother needed help I would rather the State gave him money before I did.
On the one hand, I’m with you on this one… I think that if you resolve to never give money to anyone who is responsible for their own situation, you’re not going to be helping anyone close to home. (Especially since humans have a tendency to blame the victim. It’s just a natural part of how our minds work.) I don’t agree with that kind of attitude, and I just can’t live that way.
On the other hand, there does come a point where your family is just taking advantage of you, and it comes time to cut them off.
Take my sister, for instance. She’s been in one mess or another her entire adult life. She’s been coming to me, asking for money, practically since I first moved out at the age of 17. Once she had a child, I felt it was unethical to let the child suffer for what her mother did, so if she showed up asking for grocery money, I’d offer to take her grocery shopping.
That worked for a little while. Then came the day when she showed up with her hair freshly dyed and her nails freshly manicured, wanting me to buy her groceries. What’s funny is that if she had come to me really exhausted, complaining about how she hated her hair or something, I’d have probably taken her out for a spa day to help her relax. But the fact that she spent her grocery money on beauty products, knowing that I would bail her out, was too much. Since then, I haven’t given her anything, and (surprise, surprise) she doesn’t contact me anymore. When she does, it’s usually so that she can come back the next day and ask for money.
There’s nothing wrong with giving money to people who have made mistakes. (Geez, if I took that stance, I really /would/ be a hypocrite! Considering how much my family and friends have helped get me back on my feet…) But there does come a point where the person is obviously just using you. And that’s the point where you have to say “no.”
“Since then, I haven’t given her anything, and (surprise, surprise) she doesn’t contact me anymore.”
I’m the same commenter in #51 above. Not too long ago, I told my wife that her brother was a leech. She got horribly offended. I then asked her, “Does he ever call you when he doesn’t want money?” (No.)
She’s actually really pissed at him right now. He’s going through some particularly hard times, and she’ll call to see how he’s doing. He won’t answer the phone or call her back. She actually left him a message that was something along the lines of “How come you only call me when you want money? You can call just to talk, you know.” He actually went and blabbed to the rest of the family about that one.
The real turning point for me was when, at one point, my sister asked for money and I made the mistake of saying, “Sorry, I don’t get paid until Friday.”
Then, /months/ later, I had turned her down for money again and she called my mom up to complain about it. She said that she “knew” that I had just been paid, even though I told her I didn’t have any money. I still can’t believe that she tracked my paydays for months after one slip on my part. I can barely keep track of my own paydays without a calendar!
That’s when I really started to take notice of the patterns in her behavior. I started asking her questions about her income, and trying to figure out where her money was going. I asked her what her hourly wage was, and I extrapolated what she made from that. Basically, I found out that she makes at least as much money as I do. Given that she probably lied about her hourly wage, she probably makes more than I do. While she does have a daughter to take care of, half of my paycheck goes to student loans, so we’re pretty much in the same boat, financially.
When I confronted her and asked her what she does with all her money, she whined that all of it was being taken out in taxes. Apparently she thought I was too stupid to remember what she did with her huge tax refund last year. (She went on an expensive vacation.)
That’s when I started really paying attention to try and figure out where her money was going, and noticed things like the fresh hair dye and manicured nails.
Thank you Tyler for posting this sentiment. I had actually come back to muse aloud at how surprised and sad I am that the default response here is not to help out family even if you are able.
Our experience with my sister and her husband was such that the very act of needing to get money from us to pay their mortgage and their car insurance was enough of an impetus for them to turn their financial lives around. Yes, they had a flat screen TV and a sailboat which they couldn’t afford, but they were in a jam. And she’s my sister. I was glad we could help.
I’d make the same decision. Other family members aren’t always aware of what’s going on in a given situation.
I think that some of the “don’t lend” crowd (like me) have had bad experiences, but I think mainly this is a difference between one-time help and repeated aid. I’m willing to give/loan to family that is actually trying and has just fallen on hard times, but I’m not going to donate to someone that’s constantly lacking funds but is living as well or better than I am and refuses to make compromises in their standard of living, relative or no, near or far.
I guess a good example would be the single mom that’s just been downsized but is looking for a new job and needs to keep her phone on so that she can get calls back vs. the single mom who just quit her last job because “she was too good for it” but had nothing else lined up and needs to keep her phone on.
It’s not a perfect example, admittedly.
Exactly. I’ll help out once or twice. Bad luck happens to people. But once it’s a pattern? No.
I’m totally glad to help the local homeless shelter, and if one of the addicts in my family ends up on the street, I hope they have access to their local homeless shelter and a treatment plan.
But, if one of the addicts in my family comes to me and says “Oh no, I put another mortgage on my house and gambled away the money and now there’s a balloon payment and we’re going to be homeless!” then I wouldn’t give them cash – they’ll just drink THAT away too. It’s not like I haven’t seen it happen.
There is a huge difference between helping people pretend there’s nothing wrong so they can keep fucking up, and helping people out when they are trying to change.
It seems to me that people are more so advocating a hand up, not a hand out policy. Personally, I mostly offer assistance and advice with the exception being some grocery cards for my grandparents. Their cardinal sin is being too generous to others when they can’t afford to, which I can’t entirely fault, but also means I won’t give them cash.
We’re in the same boat, but with my husband’s parents, who once asked us for a $10,000 loan. They overspent on their home, like many in the early 2000s. Then their business went bankrupt during the recession, yet their spending never changed — even after it became clear that they were headed for financial issues.
We decided not to loan them money because 1) it was part of our own emergency fund, 2) we would have trouble saving another $10,000 quickly because of our own economic situation at the time, 3) it wouldn’t solve any problems — just keep them afloat for a couple of months and 4) they didn’t have a plan for changing their situation.
They were just buying time, so to speak. And it would have put our family (with two small children) at risk.
This was not an easy decision. But that was almost 3 years ago, and they are doing better now. They had to make the changes necessary to get back on their feet. They are still at risk, but the lessons they’ve learned are helping them make better decisions. I don’t regret it.
Its wholly irresponsible (in my family) to watch another family member commit financial (and/or life) mistakes and NOT intervene.
This is not the ‘American’ way, people have too much pride and they want to do things their way because… they’re free to do whatever they want… until they are knee deep in trouble. Even then, people still have too much pride, which leads them back to their old ways again.
My sisters and I are pretty tight, we always chip in money to fix/renovate the house we grew up in. We watched our parents and uncles/aunts help our grandparents financially so we expect that our turn will come.
If one of us gets into money troubles, I am sure we will help each other. One sister is particularly irresponsible with spending… and we ALL worry about her and she gets lectured every now and then (but only because we are the ones who will be there when she needs rescuing).
Ironically I had to borrow money from that sister to settle a tax mishap that I incurred working abroad.
While reading JD’s post, I immediately thought of a post on the ’48 Days to the Work You Love’ Blog (By Dan Miller). There is some very sound advice from one of history’s most respected persons: Abraham Lincoln.
You can find the post titled “Need a quick loan for the hard times?” at http://www.48days.com/2011/03/29/need-a-quick-loan-for-the-hard-times/
But, as for the parents, openly talk with them about how you might be able to help themselves. Can you offer them a “job” of babysitting their grandkids (Date Night!), gardening at your house, or other things they might be passionate about that would give you some extra time in exchange for paying them?
Oooooh, I like that! I have not read it before.
I wonder what the step brother did??
My parents made a bad financial decision and had to declare bankruptcy four years ago when my mother was 60 and my father 67. A year after that my mother was injured in a car accident and is now an invalid due to severe brain damage. Because of the bankruptcy I am my mother’s conservator, meaning that I represent her financially. After the accident I called her employer and found out that my mother had not purchased the long term care policy that they offered so my parents income was dramatically lowered while their bills have dramatically increased (medicine, doctors, and a caregiver). All she has is a tiny retirement and social security which total about a quarter of what she used to make. Because of this I purchase all of her personal items and so my husband and I spend a couple hundred a month on my parents. Since her accident I have spent thousands on my parents. I have two siblings both of whom are in their 30s but neither of whom are financially solid.
Now the comapany I work for is about to fold and not only am I budgeting my expenses I have to take into concideration the money I need to spend on my parents. It can be a bit frustrating and overwhelming. I don’t feel guilty and like I owe my parents but I do know the financial limitations that they face and as a responsible child pick up what I can. If my mother were not an invalid I would let them deal with their own financial issues but her injury changed everything.
Wow, I’m so sorry to hear about your mom.
This is a good reminder that we should purchase life and health insurance policies and save for emergencies, since accidents can and do happen.
Though it’s not fun to think about.
You probably already have pursued this, but how about medicaid, food stamps etc. for you mother/parents?
Definitely check in with their town/city/county/state senior services dept, it can help you find options & programs for help (both for them & for you – caregivers/conservators usually face a lot of stress even when they love their patients/dependents).
IMaybe a good first (or last!) step is to help the needy relatives research what community benefits are available to them, I know JD doesn’t want a lot of politics here, but I do think there is a societal dimension to this question. Some people don’t have family and as a society we need to put safety nets in place for everyone. Once we do that, it does make it easier to think about how much help we give to individuals (friends or family).
Elisabeth – that’s a very valid point (and you’re not talking politics just by mentioning the fact that benefits exist!)
I’m going to answer by asking you two questions.
What will be the realistic long-term results of any action you choose to make, both for you and your family members?
How do those results align with the results you want?
Honestly, it sounds like your brother needs to figure it out himself, and giving/lending him any money will not help him right now. There’s probably not much you can do until he and his wife are interested in changing.
As for your parents, remember that retirement is optional. If they choose to retire and can’t make ends meet it’s in large part their fault. I know a lot of people mentioned other cultures where helping older parents is normal – let’s not forget those parents often help their children in return. It’s not a one-way street. If you and your parents are open to that kind of arrangement then it’s something you should consider.
Let’s not forget that there is no true standard for this, as life expectancy has skyrocketed in the past 100-150 years. Living until 70 didn’t become common until after WW2. It was much easier to care for parents who were going to work up until the final few years of their lives, or retired and helped their children raise their families. Now the average retiree will live until they’re 75-80. HUGE difference.
Retirement is not always optional… it is difficult to find work over the age of 50 and sometimes health issues make it impossible even were employers to be willing to hire.
I completely agree.
My grandmother retired early to stay home and take care of me while my mom went to work. She was able to do that because of financial responsibility, frugal living, and because my grandfather continued to work.
My mother on the other hand is not financially responsible and I do feel that I will end up supporting her 100% without getting anything in return (i.e. help raising my family). I have no problem helping her out, but I would like some benefits in return. I’m not willing to just write her a check every month JUST BECAUSE she’s my mom.
While I agree with the whole “Teach a Man to Fish” thing and sending your brother to a personal finance class, I also believe that Charity Begins at Home.
I’m not sure about Dave, but JD, you’ve written about increasing your philanthropic work. Having worked in the nonprofit field most of my life, and having a sibling and parents that have suffered some set backs, I’ve come to believe that the more ethical way to spend my money is to first provide for the people in need in front of my eyes rather than the more sexy option of international philanthropy.
Generosity towards strangers is much easier than geneoristy towards the people you know intimately, especially if you disapprove/don’t like them. But the latter, I think, is a higher expression of love because it involves less ego and more forgiveness and thought.
A good book to consider reading on this topic is “Mindfulness and Money” by Dominic J. Houlder and Kulananda, two Western Buddhists.
I would agree but the definition of provide help and the definition of “need” are at issue here. This brother is not in “need” unless it be in need of making better financial choices with his own money first.
And “providing” for him doesn’t mean “infusions of cash” for an able person who isn’t making wise choices.
No one’s going to be helped by cash gifts that perpetuate his foolishness and dependency.
I tend to give locally first, but this comment has actually made me think I shouldn’t.
Internationally that money could be the difference between life and death. Here it’s a delay from bankruptcy, or the ability to buy new hand held video game systems for all the kids at Christmas (because paying off medical debt is less important!). The US may not have the best social safety net, but it’s better than the net in many developing countries. (That’s not to say that there aren’t people in the US who need money to get out of the cycle of poverty, there certainly are. But it doesn’t sound like most of the relatives talked about here are in that situation.)
Btw, for everyone who is worried about food instability in the US, don’t forget that this weekend is the USPS canned and boxed food pick-up. http://www.donnafreedman.com/2011/05/11/stamp-out-hunger-2011-spare-a-can-for-your-fellow-man/ Food really is a base necessity and food banks are a great way for people who need temporary help to stay fed.
I think there is some information we lack about the situation before we call it “charity”. Would this money go to keeping cable on? A huge house that they can’t afford? An iPhone bill?
If I knew that this brother or parents were truly in need of life’s basic necessities it could be charity, but I didn’t make sacrifices in my own home so that I can pay for them in someone else’s. Brother or not.
Been there, done that … DON’T DO IT!!
I loaned small amounts (a few hundred here and there) to my brother and was repaid, though I had to use my credit card to do it and he never repaid the interest it carried. Then he got really strapped and asked for a $6000 loan. I figured blood is blood so I loaned it to him, but realistically I knew his financial picture and never expected to be repaid. Fortunately for me I had some savings at the time so most of this amount did not go on my credit cards.
He surprised me and repaid it a year later, but to my dismay I learned he had cashed in his 401k to pay this and other debts he had. If I had known I would have urged him to find a different solution. But it was done so life goes on. Unwisely as it turns out I mentioned I had not really expected him to repay it.
A year later he asks for another $6000. I no longer have that much in cash and would have had to do it with a huge credit card cash advance, and remembering his earlier failure to repay the interest I tried to explain why I couldn’t loan the money. (I had that much and more, but it was invested and it was not a good time to liquidate my investments.)
He got pissed at me and stomped off with harsh words, without even giving me a fair hearing of my reasons. Now, nearly ten years later we are still not speaking. In fact, he moved to another state and I don’t have either his phone number or address.
To me, this is the cost of loaning money to relatives. Never loan, NEVER. If you can afford to gift, fine, then gift … if YOU choose. But be prepared for people to expect MORE gifts in the future!!
Loans make for hard feelings on both sides. I don’t consider that for me this was a real loss, because if he only cared about me to the extent that he could get money from me then I am better off without him in my life. That said, I would not have chosen to cut him out of my life this way.
So sorry to hear what happened to you and your brother. Similar events happened between myself and my husbnad with his brother. I would never loan a family member money again. People who say blood is blood must not have family members like ours.
I’m glad to see so many people differentiating between the brother and the parents because it really is two different situations.
I agree with everyone else and JD – I wouldn’t loan the brother (who is an extreme version of my own sibling/siblings-in-law) the money because it just seems like it’ll disappear the same way. He seems unwilling to change (if bankruptcy doesn’t convince you to change, I don’t know what would!) and there seems little point nagging him to do so until he’s ready. I’d probably make an effort to teach the brother’s kids better money management though.
If the parents aren’t big spenders though, it seems like they may not have had money to put away for their retirement rather than wilfully not done it – so I would do what I could to help them out.
My parents are in a similar position – not big spenders at all but due to ill-health, haven’t earned enough to put away a lot into savings. (They will though get a state pension and free health care as we’re in the UK so that’s a big help, especially given their health issues.)
One thing to consider though is pride – my mum refuses to let me pay for dinner when I visit them, even when I’m there for her birthday! I’m having to find other ways to sneak in support — the weekly meal thing is a great idea and one I’d definitely implement if we lived nearer.
Kevin – You have a smart sister there!
I think you are obligated to help family. Everybody knows this and that is why they are uncomfortable not to. However, the problem is money. If they are mismanaging money, you can’t give them any. That would be a waste. Everybody knows this – and that’s why they are uncomfortable doing it.
You can usually help in other ways. Find out if there is anything else you can do. Can you start a food buying club and get bulk food at low prices? Can you do some babysitting so a sister can work a second job? Can you grow a garden and share it? Plant fruit trees or berries in their yards? Invite them over to eat a lot? Fix stuff when it breaks? Help with their resume? Take their kids camping? Offer them your hand me downs and cast offs. Most people hate that because the reason they are in trouble is they are pretending so hard not to be. It’s a reality check.
To get out of giving money, I like the come-back, “Sorry, I can’t. It’s all tied up.” As well it should be.
And yes. Save up for their future.
I’ve had two of my siblings really go the extra mile and help me out when I’ve needed it, but it was with their time or a place to live temporarily, help moving and not directly money – which I wouldn’t have accepted anyway. Now that I’m doing well, I’ve had the opportunity to help out the one’s kids and I’ve also helped the other with work that he needs done or a place to stay temporarily, rides to the airport – anything that either asked, I would give.
But I’ve got other siblings who have asked for money, and I’ve given it, knowing it would never be repaid. It’s caused hard feelings between us, so I regret doing it. Although I haven’t asked for it back, I think they’re embarrassed, so they avoid the situation – and me.
I recently had a friend ask me to lend them money to buy something that is a luxury (sort of a bridge loan on money they expected to get – and did get – in the future). They’re in major debt from credit cards as well. I told them that I’d have to cash in some stock to do it and that would cause tax issues for me, so sorry, but no – which was sort of a lie, since I did have the cash sitting in the bank but it’s earmarked for my own expenses. If the bank doesn’t consider someone to have good enough collateral, why should we?
It’s reality that many people that didn’t save for their retirement will have to work past 65 or really cut back on their spending. Oh well, you get to learn the hard way what wants vs. needs are then. If it’s your parents, you give back to them what they gave you – food, clothing and a roof over their heads.
With siblings, I think it is fine to say no. They need to learn to deal with money correctly, and sometimes, the only way to do that is to let them fail – sad but true.
With his parents though, I think it’s different. I understand the dilemma he is facing with them, but ultimately, the children should take care of the parents if they don’t plan well. I don’t mean give them thousands of dollars, but possibly buy a house they can live in rent free (if you can do that) and help out with bills. They did raise you, so you do owe them your life! 🙂
I actually have the exact opposite opinion when it comes to helping out your parents. It was THEIR choice to have children. I do not feel a child owes their parents anything for “raising them”. I have children, and I would never ask them for anything and I know my parents would never ask me for anything. With that being said, I would help them out if something happened due to unfortunate circumstances because they are family (same with a sibling). But, if they are in a bad place because of bad choices, then I would only offer moral support.
I guess this is just how I was raised.
I love your comment!! My inlaws use the “i am your parent” to try to get my husband and I to feel sorry for them and give them $. They are state employees, make what we do, and have 75% pension at retirement. Yet they miss manage their money so much they will have to work after retirement because they can not afford to live on 75% of their income.
I personally wouldn’t help out a sibling, but then again I’m an only child so I don’t have to worry about this.
When it comes to parents I’m a bit on the fence. Personally, my parents are divorced and my father isn’t in my life but he makes plenty of money anyway and is financially responsible.
My mother on the other hand is the complete opposite. I feel that when she gets older that I will have to support her because she fails to take responsibility now. She makes plenty of money (70K) yet for some reason doesn’t have any. Ever. She makes ends meet but I’m not sure where it all goes.
If I can find money to save (and have a 1K emergency fund) while being a 19-year-old student and only working for minimum wage I find it very hard to believe that she cannot save on a salary of 70K a year. But she’s my mom and she raised me all by herself. It’s such a difficult choice.
I’m in the same situation as the original poster here: my parents are retired without much money (my dad is retired for physical reasons, my mom will continue working until the day she dies) and my brother and his family is constantly in debt, but I have money.
It puts me in a weird position and I’ve made a few personal rules for myself:
– Only consider any money going to them as gifts, never loans
– Only give them money in extreme emergencies or in ways that can truly help them long-term.
So based on those rules I’ve given some money to my brother’s family and some to my parents, and here’s what I’ve done in the last couple years:
– Gave my brother $1k to pay for his required medication when he first bought a car and was out of money for the month
– Paid about $15k to completely strip my parent’s house to bare walls and redo the paint, flooring, kitchen, and give them all new furniture. Their house was out of the show Hoarders before, but giving them a clean start let them “reboot” their life and they got rid of most of their junk in the process. Over a year later, their home is still pretty clean and decluttered.
– I help my brother’s kids by investing $100 each month into a 529 plan for my two nephews. After a couple years of doing this, the accounts are nearing about $10k combined, and the oldest is only 11. They should have at least something saved up when they reach college age, something my brother and I didn’t have the benefit of when we got to college.
I do believe I have a moral obligation to help my family members. I don’t believe that giving money is necessarily helping. In some case it is just enabling. If I were in a similar situation I would ask myself what I could do that would be helpful and loving toward my family member, and then I would do that.
Almost 20 years ago, I had a small windfall at a time when my mother and sister were both faced with onerous credit card debt. I surprised them by paying off both debts (no strings attached) and advised my mother and sister to eliminate credit cards from their spending habits or at most to use them only when they could be paid off in the same month, to avoid falling back into the same financial pit. My sister, in particular took this to heart and cut up her credit cards vowing never to use the again.
Fast forward 20 years and both my mother and sister are back in the same credit card situation, maybe worse. So much for trying to help…
Here’s my general overview (first):
I would say you need to determine three things:
1) What am I comfortable giving?
2) Will this actually help the person?
3) How will I feel about this donation if it’s not used the way I wanted it to be?
Even if your parents (or brother) never ask you for money, if you have an idea of what you are comfortable with ahead of time you won’t need to make that decision under pressure if it becomes an issue.
I would decide if you want to give money, time, goods, or some combination of all three. Some things are cheaper for you but still good help (donating food from a home-grown garden comes to mind).
Make sure you aren’t spending your money/time/effort prolonging a downward spiral of the person you need to help. If the person hasn’t admitted the root cause of whatever is causing money issues (spending out of control, house they can no longer afford, etc.) all you are doing is dragging things out longer.
If you help your parents with some item, like say, a new fridge, and they turn around and give it to your brother because he “needs it more”, will you be okay with that? Please remember that once you give something people may use it in a way that might irk you, but it’s no longer in your hands.
While deciding what you are comfortable with, I would definitely recommend checking into programs available nearby. For example, the electric company that supplies me also has a needy family program that your parents/brother might qualify for if it came down to it. The United Way (at least in the US) is a very broad network and has lots of connections that they can tap for aid, even if they don’t always have cash to hand out.
As far as your parents go, if you are worried about end-of-life care, I would look into the cost for a long-term care policy. Check with the local Center on Aging (I think that’s what it’s called), they may have some good ideas or better current estimates about the cost of living for older adults.
Secondly, some personal comments. I’ve a sister that has been borrowing money for 8 years and for many and varied reasons I’ve finally started letting her calls go to voicemail first, so that I don’t get that immediate heartstring “I need to fix this now” tug. If she wanted to change her circumstances it would be different, but really she just wants money from me so that she can keep doing exactly what she wants. She used to borrow money and then show up with the latest gadget, while I didn’t get repaid. While you should help family if possible, it doesn’t make you a bad person to say, “I don’t want to finance your Keeping-Up-With-The-Jones’ lifestyle” or “My retirement and financial health is more important to me than bailing you out of something that’s your own fault”.
These sorts of issues always make me come out of lurker status. 🙂
Good luck to everyone in these situations.
My Dad called last month and asked me for $1,500 to buy a 15 year old car. That night, I had a dream where my ancestors were sitting across from me on a bus, and were judging me. They said things like, “She’s German, she’ll do the right thing”. I loaned him the money the next day, but I never expect to get it back.
It makes me sick that *every*single*penny* has slipped through his fingers and he didn’t even have $1,500. I suppose that is why I save like I do…I don’t want to be like that when I’m 70.
I think it partly depends on how responsible the person in need is and partly how much you can afford to help. I would lend (give) money to a responsible sibling before I would lend (give) money to an irresponsible parent. I would call it a loan, but think of it as a gift. But there is also a budget for giving, and you cannot give more than you can afford even if your heart is willing.
People may resent you if you tell them “No,” but you may start to resent yourself if you always say “Yes.”
Been there, done that, MADE the T-shirt!!
I have loaned money to family twice in my life and I will never do it again. It changes the relationship and can and usually does cause irrepairable damage. I was taken advantage of because I was family – (ex: not paying money back but they go on a vacation!) and there was no shame about their behavior. I learned my lesson the hard way… twice! I truely beleive that people have to fall on their arses HARD, pick themselves up, dust themselves off, and clean up their own mess. Otherwise they don’t learn the lesson and it happens all over again. May be harsh but it is reality.
We’re about to be in this position. Hubby is about to start a new job, and if we pretend we’re not making any more money (my whole check is going straight into savings as of his first check) we’ll be doing great. On the other hand both of our parents and siblings could use some major help.
For right now we’ve decided on expensive, useful gifts (home repair, braces, wisdom teeth removal, paying for half of a used car, etc.) rather than giving them money. We’re also going to be giving them some work we would normally do ourselves because both my parents are in the construction industry, working on multi-million dollar homes and people aren’t building those anymore.
We’re setting up an account for my 5 year old niece, so eventually she’ll be getting actual money but I don’t mind gifting her with enough to start off with a car, college, help with her first apartment, etc. like I would giving my sister a free ride.
The best way to deal with the situation is to imagine it is YOURSELF in an opposite position:
How would I wish my relatives to act toward me if I were suddenly reliant upon the largese of my family to merely survive?
would I wish lectures even if I had disregard former lectures? would I wish to be abandoned by those who share everything of my life except my finances, because of my financial decisions, poor they may be?
would I wish the fatted calf killed, would I expect the fatted calf? Would I be the father of the prodigal or the older brother that requires hair-shirts and work of the lowest order? Would I be treated with love or resignation and obligation? Charity not from the heart and freely given is a cold succor.
Who would I want to my family to be to me, if I were the prodigal son?
My real concern with that would be that a person doesn’t always choose what is in their best interests, sometimes in order to avoid current troubles or pain.
I don’t advocate abandonment. There’s a difference between abandonment and tough love.
Great line Ash… “there’s difference between abandonment and tough love”. I agree with you 110% – it is a HUGE difference.
I struggle with the same question because my husband and I do so much better financially than the rest of our families. For me, it really depends on the family member.
For instance, my brother-in-law is a hard working man. He never finished college, but he did pick up his father’s trade of painting houses. He works a full-time job as a foreman for a painting company and is working weekends starting his own business. My brother-in-law lives in a house that he and my husband bought together. We decided to gift him our stake in the house. We don’t need it and my brother-in-law works as hard as my husband for less money. In my eyes, he deserves it.
On the other hand, I have a college age brother with a history of drug dependence. My family is bad with money but we tend to help out when it’s critical (as in, basic needs like food and shelter are in jeopardy). I took my brother out clothes shopping once, to get some quality clothing that would last him for a while. On his last day visiting us, he told me that he didn’t really like some of the clothes and wanted to exchange them, would I please give him the receipt. I later found out, he was trying to get the money back for the clothes to pay for his drug habit. Needless to say, I haven’t spent a dollar on this brother since then.
I think with family, all you can do is go with your gut and hope for the best. I once spent $1500 buying my mom food and getting her electricity turned back on… The next time I called her she was at a salon getting her hair professionally colored. Even though my gut was wrong, I figured that I learned an important lesson about my mom for what could have been a much steeper price.
God forbid a poor person have nice hair.
Maybe she had money for it that month? Or decided it was worth giving something else up for it?
In our family, we have a tradition of helping each other out financially from time to time. not long term “pay the credit card bills” help, but maybe a couple of thousand dollars when hard times hit. My brother has a child with a severe chronic illness,and his wife must stay home to care for him. The medical bills induced a bankrupt state. You bet we helped him out. My nephew has been better for a couple of years now, and my brother is doing ok with money now. One year my husband and I hit hard times with a 6 month illness and slim job opportunities for the “well” spouse. Without support from my siblings, we would have drowned. Now we are both well, employed, and saving like normal. Another sibling lived in Biloxi when Katrina hit. One sister worked OT while her husband was in anesthesia school (he was not allowed to have a job b/c he was on call for anesthesia). She got a small amount monthly, which kept the rent paid until he graduated. Now they are fine. I have one sister who is wealthy. No one expects her to finance our lives, but we all rest knowing that if disaster struck, she would take us in until we could recover. So far, thank God, that has never happened.
We consider this “taking care of our own”. No one expects to get paid back, but the one needing help knows it may be his turn to help out next time. They are grateful for th opportunity to “pay it forward.”
Dave, what you describe is a double edged sword. I can feel your pain and fully understand your situation. My older brother fell into very bad health and could no longer live on his own so I brought him to live with me. It was the only option other than a nursing home. I hired nurses to care for him while I worked and it quickly drained my funds. I retained my 401K but had cashed in a profit sharing planfrom a previous company to pay off his home so he wouldn’t lose it. He paid me back every penny of the money he owed me and helped what he could with expenses for the nurses.
I had to wait for my brother to ask for help before I took on taking care of him. We had never gotten along through the years so I was more than a little apprehensive about offering my assistance. By the time he passed away, I was drawing my SS and had no other means of support. It was very hard to adjust since I still had a house and car payment.
This has left me with almost no savings and I have had to form a home based business to help support myself. It’s still hard and each year seems a little harder to keep the bills paid.
Here’s the best part of it all: It was very humbling to be able to help someone and extend their life a few more years. I would not trade any of the hardships for the friendship my brother and I formed in his later years. Money can’t buy that. Nor can it buy the peace of mind that comes with knowing that I did everything possible for another person.
What would I advise you to do? Wait! Your brother has not hit “bottom” at this point and if you bail him out now he will likely go back to the same ways and make more debts. If you make it easy for him he has no reason to chage. Wait for the change to come and he asks for your help. Then help him – very carefully.
GRS is a jinx!
I was sitting here minding my own business when all of a sudden a relative calls and says “Well, we have a problem…”
Instinctively, I know what that means. “We is the pronoun that is used to psychologically bait me into the warm and fuzzy notion we are all an interdependent collective. The stark reality is that we are only a family when they need something. We’re not a family on my birthday. We’re not a family when I got married and they did not bother to show up. We’re not a family when I graduated and they did not come. We certainly won’t be a family when my household starts to pay back the tens of thousands of debt I incurred for graduate school.
The relative’s son is addicted to pain medication that he takes for a lingering injury he sustained on his job. He’s despondent and depressed which impact his ability to work, and all the while his financial obligations are mounting. I made it clear that we cannot afford to help, that I just drained our savings account, which already had a measly balance, for an emergency root canal – which is quite true.
Yet, I feel terribly sad for my relative and her son. However, I cannot save the world. More importantly, I don’t have the resources to save the world. My household is my first and primary responsibility.
My long standing rule is NO loans under any circumstances for any reason. I don’t give more than I can afford to lose. Also, I only give cold hard cash – credit is not a gift, check your interest rate. Last point, if people walk out of your life because you do not want to be beguiled, manipulated, or guilted in supporting their destructive irresponsible lifestyles – sometimes you just need to enthusiastically wave goodbye despite how painful that can be.
Sadly, with someone who is unable to manage because of drug addiction, only a hard line stance will work. All the best to you.
First off, all the comments on this story are fantastic and cover multi-faceted family situations. I find myself in agreement with virtually all of them. I hope Dave is finding them helpful in weighing his options and choosing his course of action.
If you can, it might help to sit down with your parents at some relaxed point and let them know you’re concerned about how they’ll cover their retirement – perhaps starting with general concerns and eventually shifting to financial concerns. While they might be in la-la land, they also might have given it some real thought and have some ideas or plans that you don’t know about. If all goes well, you could discuss possibilities and ideas of your own for help you would and wouldn’t be willing/able to give.
I totally agree with everyone who suggested ways to help parents w/o directly giving them money, be it sharing groceries, paying for medication, taking over a utility bill, or offering your home to live in if your relationship is good.
One last thought: both my own experience and anecdotes from friends shows me a repeated pattern of elderly relatives suddenly beginning to blow large amounts of cash as a precursor to dementia (in my MIL’s case, primarily on fake psychics and sham charities/scams, to the tune of an estimated $8-10K while on a small pension) – sometimes in large amounts, often in a flood of small amounts. This doesn’t mean being a spendthrift automatically means dementia. However, every case of dementia I’ve personally seen began with the elder engaging in spendthrift behavior. This IMHO is another compelling reason not to just hand over money, also to try and keep an eye on parental finances (which is hard to do).
I could say the exact same thing about bipolar. Not all spendthrifts are bipolar, but everyone I have met in real life that is bipolar (poorly managed or unmanaged anyway) is a spendthrift.
I would help my parents and my brother (and his family) with cash, if I had the means and they needed it. They are hard workers, and for the most part, responsible with their money. Bills before fun kind of people. My sister, however, would be a different story. She is fun (and new clothes, make-up, eating out, etc.) before bills kind. Depending on the situation, I would have to be creative in finding a way to help her out. I have given her cash in the past and my parents still do – she is not learning a darn thing that way.
No issues with my side of the family, but my husband’s side is another story. Before we were married his dad came down and while he had my husband’s name on all of his financial papers, he brought those papers and had my husband sign off his name. The father prceeded to use the money to build a house and then move in my husband’s sister, husband and six kids with them. True, it was his money to do with as he pleased, but so much for any inheritance!
Anyway, after years of supporting my husband’s grown sister, husband and six kids, they finally “sort of” cut them loose. The sister found a new man on the internet, left the old husband and kids and moved across the country. After a handful of years the new husband dies. My husband’s mom calls us and wants my husband to give her $500.00 so that the sister can move back across country – bear in mind that now she has six GROWN kids. Of course my husband gave the money but we never heard so much as a thank you. We did hear that it wasn’t enough to get her all the way back home.
It is aweful being stuck to a family of deadbeats. There are many miles between us and they are too poor to visit and we don’t travel to see them, so that is at least something.
While I’ve never been asked to assist a family member, but parents have. Most recently, I was stunned to learn that my mother (now a widow, but financially secure) loaned 4,000 to my brother (wife lost a job) so they could keep their son in private school. At first I was blown over that she’d offer to do such a thing (not sure if she was asked). Then I realized she was more concerned about her grandson, who had some prior difficulty in a different school. She paid the school directly at the request of her financial adviser (and great advice should anyone actually step in to help, apply your money directly to the serious need).
Even knowing about this loan (I presume it’s a loan, but have no knowledge) created a bit of tension (in my head since he has no knowledge). At the time, my father was hospitalized at the time and my mother was moving to a smaller place; every other sibling had been to help her pack and prepare to move, drive her to the hospital, etc., except him.
In the end, I had to remind myself that she was assisting my nephew and it made her happy to do so.
I second the “give in kind” suggestions. My spouse and I have both given and received $ from siblings depending on who’s up or down when.
Parents and finances can be a challenge, even when the parents are lucid and solvent.
Long story short, my inlaws are doing okay but us kids go through a financial ‘fire drill’ once a year or so of worry and financial review to conclude…that they are doing okay.
Accepting my FIL’s view of finances is just part of loving him, that’s my conclusion now.
I’m sure our finances have plenty of quirks from his perspective!
Did I mention how grateful I am that they are solvent?
My husband and I provided financial and other support to my bipolar mother-in-law until her death last year. Her mental illness was at the heart of her financial problems so, although it wasn’t easy, we felt it was important to support her.
But we were always analyzing our responsibilities. For example, we decided to pay debts she had to doctors who allowed her to “float” for services not paid by medicaid. But Sears who gave her a credit card despite her showing no income or credit? Fuhgeddaboutit!
If she wasn’t ill and simply making bad decisions, I don’t think we would have felt the same way.
But it is hard. No one wants to see someone they love ending up in trouble. Especially when you know the way out.
If you want to help with no expectation of repayment or a change of heart from your family, give them some money. But if you can’t or don’t want to do that, you just need to understand that your family is taking their own path and pray they find a new way soon before they really end up in trouble.
I’m glad you brought up mental illness. It can have such a huge impact on finances.
My mom’s brother is mentally ill and went undiagnosed for most of his adult life. My father gave him the small business he had been running, and my uncle basically mismanaged it into the ground.
His mental illness eventually led him to homelessness. He currently lives in a halfway house and receives some government aid. Now that we know he literally is not capable of taking care of himself, my parents give him clothing, pay for some of his therapy and help him access other resources he needs.
I doubt they will give him money or big things anymore — he just doesn’t know how to manage it.
I would not loan them any money either. Them being both your brother and your parents.
What I would do is set up a fund that they do not know about. Use it for your parents if needed. And maybe for your brothers to prevent him from going homeless.
The best thing to do, and also the hardest thing to do, is to have a talk with them. Tell them that you will not loan them any money, regardless of how bad their situation gets.
And maybe, just maybe, tell them that you will lend them money on one condition, that you will handle their finances from now on.
But make it clear that no change in behavior means no money.
This is the second comment I’ve left in this vein, but you should *never* offer or expect to take over someone else’s finances unless they’re mentally incapable of managing them personally.
What do they learn if you make all the financial decisions for them? Nothing! You’re taking on the role of parent/authority figure that will doubtless impinge upon your relationship and they’re taking on the role of dunce who can’t cope.
Not very healthy!
I routinely listen to Dave Ramsey’s podcast, and callers frequently ask questions about money and family dynamics….
I once heard Dave tell someone the only thing you can do is build your own wealth and be prepared to assist if needed.
I think this discussion is incredibly pre-mature if you don’t have the requisite 3-8 months emergency fund, have tons of consumer debt, don’t have a nickel saved for retirement. I don’t mean for dire emergencies – sudden failures in health, no food, etc.
I have such a giving nature and a tendency to people please so sometimes I obsess about helping others when I need things myself. My gym shoes are 4 years old, I need tons of dental work, I need a dining room table, I live in a small apartment while others need help in palatial homes its just all too freakin’ much. The world ills and those in my own backyard have to wait until I can get my household together…..
One of the reasons my DH’s extended family needs continual help is that when they have any money in the bank, we’re not talking 3-6 month emergency funds or retirement funding anything like that, other even less-well off relatives ask them for it. Only by being in a perpetual state of debt can they spend money on their own wants without relatives making them feel guilty about having more.
If DH’s relative A has money, his sister B begs for it, and if A doesn’t give it to B, their mother guilt-trips A. So there’s no incentive for him to save. We try to encourage A to set the bar higher (like, if you have high interest debt, then you ARE broke, even with that tax refund, or can’t you put some emergency money in CDs?), but it just doesn’t help. The family dynamics of people feeling they can lean on family incentivize everybody to spend money on luxuries whenever they get extra (so they don’t have to give it away) and to beg from family whenever an emergency hits. And every month an emergency hits.
A great observation, Nicole. I am reading a book called Poor Economics, about how to address global poverty, and that is a point the authors make — that debt can protect you from demands of family.
One woman, for example, takes out microloans from moneylenders at usurious rates. She owrks all day at her little stall, and never gets ahead because of the moneylenders’ interest. But she doesn’t care, because if she has any money left over her husband drinks it all; the debt to moneylenders protects her from a drunk husband.
The concept, and many others in the book, is fascinating to me.
Poignant commentary, thanks Nicole. To be candid, I am not accustomed to living with excess, having thousands of dollars in the bank readily at my disposal and being intentional and consistent about investing a dedicated portion of my income to acquiring income producing assets. Anytime I save just a little bit of money, and I mean $400, $500 etc, a paltry sum – my DH, not to vilify him, always says “Well there’s always the savings account.” Every other month I feel I have to try to temper his enthusiasm about something that will cost us money, a cat, a motorcycle, a higher end apartment, discounted gift cards. I try to be respectful but inside I’m fuming and sometimes I’m just livid or curt with him.
I remember when I decided to delve into learning about PF (via books and blogs), my mother said “ You know the love of money is the root of all evil” she opined, as if it is sinful to not want to live from check to check – I felt chastised. I hear about the way other people are living with tens of thousands in the bank and it seems almost unfathomable to me despite having had a boatload of formal education.
Sometimes it’s just psychologically expedient to embrace lack and struggle because being prosperous can come with some many headaches.
Learning to say “NO” or maturing to the point where your self-worth is not a function of what other people think is an indispensable skill if you want to become prosperous just as important if not more so than tracking spending.
And if that fails… there are a LOT of vehicles for saving that are difficult to get at. So they’re in a different mental account. Then keep low amounts in checking.
Online savings that take 3 days to transfer to checking and you can’t write checks from are good. Laddered CDs are also good for short term savings, even if interest rates aren’t very good. But you can have them come due every 1-3 months which is generally enough time to cover a true emergency and can go right back in renewed if there isn’t one. You can’t break them in the interim.
IRAs, 401(K), 529, anything that there is a penalty to withdrawing money from, that’s a good way to keep savings you’re unlikely to touch unless there’s a true emergency. Even the stock market (index funds, of course) since there are fees to selling stocks. Things you can set and forget and not include in your monthly income/outflow.
I don’t feel like I have any additional money unless I have enough to cover the bills in checking and one month’s expenditures in saving. If I get more than that, I can send it towards an IRA or the mortgage. Back when interest rates were high, I stuck it in online savings.
What a great comment. Standing up for yourself is a HUGE money management skill.
There’s a reason women traditionally hide money somewhere – my mom always had a secret stash so when Daddy came home having blown the savings account, we still had a place to live.
I always figured I would be helping out my Mom. While she did have a 401K, a little pension and SS, when she took early retirement (from AMX), I found out that she withdrew money from her 401k to buy a house for cash! I am in the mortgage business so I was appalled that she didn’t even talk to me first. Then, of course, she needed money so she put a lien on the house!
Several years later it went into foreclosure so I took over the payments on the house. That way it was up to her to live on the SS and pension. It allowed her to stay in her home and be sort of crazy until she died. this was hard for me to do, because I wasn’t out of debt at the time and really didn’t have much in savings, but I worked some overtime and thankfully her mortgage payment wasn’t too high since she lived in the midwest (I’m in CA).
So I would start saving in case you need to help your parents.
I gave my brother a $1000 gift, he said it was a loan, to help him purchase a home in Texas, I never got the money back nor did I ever expect to. But other than that I have said “no” on the helping out of siblings.
I do have another brother that I am worried about but he hasn’t ever asked for any help.
I think this is the first GRS thread I’ve ever read that I was still thinking about hours later! To me, the comments show a distinct correlation between the giver’s willingness to give or loan money and the recipient’s perceived or actual level of responsibility.
We’re willing to help parents more than siblings because parents had responsibility for raising us and siblings didn’t; that responsibility of raising us trumps financial responsibility. One exception noted was not helping a parent who was abusive (shirked responsibility).
Extremes are easy. Fiscally-responsible brother who was laid off in a corporate merger and doesn’t have health insurance, then blindsided by a drunk driver? Happy to help. Drug-addicted brother who only calls when looking for a handout? Not a chance.
The problems come in the gray areas: (a) when the parent is not really responsible with money but was very responsible in raising us, or the sibling is generally more or less solvent but doesn’t handle money well; (b) when a deserving parent is enabling an undeserving sibling, meaning our help is funneled away from the responsible one to the irresponsible one; or (c) when an undeserving relative is responsible for deserving relatives, such as a troubled sibling “caring” for your nieces and nephews. In (a), it’s hard to draw the lines of responsibility to gauge how much to help; in (b) and (c) it’s how to care for the relative(s) that deserve it and not the ones attached to them who don’t.
Interesting thread!
Hi,
I think everyone pretty much agrees on not lending to siblings.
On the parent issue, depending on your local legislation, you may very well have a legal obligation to support them, even if you don’t feel an ethical one.
The other thing for me is that you could consider helping your parents as repayment for the cost of raising you.
Friend A who was financially sound was asked by Friend B for a loan. Instead, Friend A said, I’ll take over your finances and put you on the right road. They worked together for about 18 months, starting with a strict budget and spending/savings plan, and Friend B got out of debt, learned to start saving, and got on the right track. Financial buddy system!
I have two older spendy brothers (15 year age gap) and a financially irresponsible, divorced mother. I was in my early 20s when my mother retired with probably under 50k in savings and a pretty spendy lifestyle and credit card debt. My brothers each have non-savings friendly lifestyles – one buys *everything* for his kids that he can and constantly lives in debt. The other one only ever has non-traditional jobs that typically don’t have benefits or goes unemployed for stretches at a time. When my mother retired, I was pretty worried about having to support her – I know how to save but I am not well established and have only earned low salary on the academic track (grad school/postdocs).
In the end, I lucked out – my semi-employed brother moved in with my mom and started paying rent to her that covered some of her day to day expenses. It’s not ideal, but it definitely lifted a weight off me. I don’t think I’d have as good of a relationship with my mother if I was supporting her in any way when I was still in my early 20s.
Well… having been in the position of being the one bailed out, and taking years to begin learning how to do it myself because the bailer-outers did not follow the advice below, I can offer my perspective from the older, wiser person-in-need.
Too much help fosters dependency (my parents did this). Too little help doesn’t help the person. There has to be a fine line between tough love and doing it for them.
Don’t criticize their choices; this only fosters guilt and shame and makes the person less likely to want to listen to what you have to say.
Make sure to reinforce that you love your person-in-need, they need to hear that. (Hate the sin, love the sinner.)
Sometimes, you have to let someone fall so they learn that they can pick themselves up. It’s easier to do this with the smaller things than the larger things, so start early. Nip it in the bud. When you see them about to make a mistake, tell them, and show them what the consequences of the options will be. Then, let them choose what to do and let them see the consequences. Do NOT rush in to save them from themselves.
It’s more effective to sit them down and teach them WITH LOVE how to solve the issues they have than to just do it for them.
So, teach them, advise them, and if they are really in a horrible spot (that might take years to get out of on their own, while they are trying to learn the lessons, and that could be eased by a bailout), offer them a one-time only bailout with conditions and boundaries, and hold to them. Even if it’s killing you. Make sure they understand, this is your one shot.
As for which relatives you’re obligated to help, I think that depends on the individual situation. My parents helped me considerably; therefore, I felt obligated and wanted to help them when it was their turn (not financially, but health-wise). My siblings have already flat-out indicated they have no intention of ever bailing me out should I get into a tight spot, so I feel absolutely no obligation to ever help them should fortunes reverse. I also take this as confirmation that I am under no obligation to share with them my enormous lottery jackpot (when I win it). Though I might share a little, as I am generous that way.
Good luck.
My parents are divorced and my brother and I worry about my Mom, who did not remarry and is not that financially savvy. Luckily she’s not in debt, but she keeps most of her money in a savings account and CDs; she doesn’t have much retirement money to speak of.
My brother and I are now talking about setting up a joint account where each of us deposits $100/month, or whatever we can afford, so that there’s a cushion there when and if she ever needs money. If we (hopefully) don’t have to use that money for medical expenses or necessities, it could be used to take her on a trip or do something else for her that she’d enjoy.
My husband and I are very lucky in that our parents are all financially responsible. Though I do worry that, as they age, they might start acting irrationally (spending everything on QVC products), or be taken advantage of (email scams, etc).
You really have no obligations, but that still doesn’t mean you can’t help. Your brother and his wife are adults and can provide for themselves. I’d be willing to assist with food – groceries and maybe occasionally taking them out. Not sure I’d hand anyone any money. If they have children I’d make sure those kids have food and a roof over their head – even if it meant living with me for a while. I wouldn’t want to take them in, but I might if there were children involved.
As for my parents that is a little different. It doesn’t sound like they squandered their money – they just didn’t really have much. $20k in savings is more than a lot of people have. Hopefully they have no debt. I would help with groceries and shelter if needed. I’d probably slide them cash every once in a while, too. You wouldn’t be the first child to help their parents in this degree and you won’t be the last.
After taking the course myself, my older brother & I purchased Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University for my parents. Since we paid for them to go, they felt more of an obligation to attend. My dad had read DR’s books and listened to his radio show for quite awhile and didn’t think he needed to take FPU. But, since he & mom went together, it helped get them on the same page and move forward together.
I think if you have a good enough relationship to have a sibling ask you for money and you have a good idea that they do not handle their money well and you view the gift as enabling, I think you are within your rights to say so. It could lead to discord between you and your brother but it could also be enlightening. There’s no insurance that not giving or giving the money would be the right thing. You have to weigh it out because only you know your brother best.
I don’t have a suggestion for how to handle the situation with your parents, but I think the “teach a man to fish” approach is definitely best for dealing with your brother–if he asks for help. It can be painful (my family has been through this with a spendthrift uncle), but it will be the biggest blessing to him in the long term.
For my family, this meant agreeing to provide $x in financial assistance to get the uncle through a particular crisis, but only under certain conditions:
1. The money was paid directly to his mortgage company, electrical utility, etc., not to him.
2. Before anyone wrote a check, he had to commit to a concrete plan (including a written budget) for getting his finances in order. He also had to choose an accountability partner to help him stick to the plan.
He was furious and tremendously offended at first, but he eventually came around and is now really thankful for the “tough love” that pulled him off the financial roller-coaster.
I would never loan money to a family member. If anyone ever had a financial crisis that was due to something out of their control, I would help them out with a gift of whatever we could afford.
If they have just been overspending and careless over time though, there’s no way I would be giving them more money to be irresponsible with.
I would be willing to pay for them to attend a class like Financial Peace University or something like it if it were offered local to them.
I would help my mother if she needed it. She is careful with her money and has given her all to raise us.
I probably would not help my dad though. He is in worse shape financially. He has been through a lot in his life, some of which wasn’t his fault, but sadly a lot of which was due to his own choices.
It’s not a coincidence that my mother’s careful use of her money makes her both less likely to need it, and me more likely to give her some.
My siblings are in various places on the financial spectrum, but they’re all moving forward. We’re all young enough and at least minimally responsible enough that we should all be ok.
To JD and Dave (and others):
I would recommend checking out The Simple Dollar blog. (I’m pretty sure the blogger Trent is an online friend of GRS).
Trent had a good post about a week ago about how some people have to reach their own personal “rock bottom” before they’re motivated to seek help. And that rock bottom place looks different for each of us. He also said that it’s usually after reaching one’s personal rock bottom that having someone else step in to offer information, books (and sometimes even money) is most effective in helping someone climb out of this situation. Here’s the address for that post:
http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2011/05/06/what-is-the-bottom/
I totally understand your dilemma about lending money to family. I’ve given money to friends and family and it often strained such relationships, because I didn’t carefully consider my decision to do so. I just felt rushed to help. And we all know that a rushed decision is usually a bad one.
I pray that you will find a “happy medium” and discover the best way to help family members (whether or not money is involved).
I’m 32 and will have a PhD within 3 years. None of my other family members finished high school. My father works for minimum wage in manufacturing company. My mother has a small home business that makes in a week maybe what I make in an hour. One brother and a sister are long-term unemployed with no skills. Another brother worked in a manufacturing business until recently when he was fired – a year after having his first kid.
My father, mother and brother are in poor health. I’m not that much better. However, I already teach at a university, and I’m the only one with a decent income. When I get my PhD, that income will go up quite a bit. I want to move to another state, meet Ms. Right and settle down once I get it. It feels like my life is almost where I want it to be… but disaster is looming on the horizon.
I feel very obligated to my family. I’ve tried helping in non-monetary ways in the past (I’ve been a student for so long that I couldn’t give them money) – I tried talking with them, helping them plan, working out ways to improve their situation. It all failed because they didn’t want to hear it. When I have the money I wouldn’t mind helping, but it won’t help long-term.
My dad is 55 and probably going to need to stop working in the next 5 years and get a lot of medical care, and no-one else will be in the position to help. He can’t manage his personal life, and keeps moving house less than 6 months into his lease. I have lost count of the number of places he has lived. I estimate it to be around 50 in the last 15 years.
My brothers and sister won’t take my help to develop themselves to get to where they want to be. I make suggestions and sometimes they yell at me for it.
How can I enjoy the significant income and excellent lifestyle I’ll have in a few years (after many years of hard work, sacrfice, and a million dollars worth of education)? If my dad is sick, the rest of my family is mostly unemployed and unhappy, how can I move, protect my income for my future family, enjoy my life, AND help them?
I’m not a jerk – I feel obligated to my parents because they worked hard to put me through a private school, and I feel obligated to my siblings because I love them and I can’t stand to see them unhappy.
What can I do if they won’t take my help and money will only solve a short term problem?
AnonymousAcademic
I can definitely sympathise with Dave’s situation. My fiance’s family are a) bad with money and b) don’t have a lot of it anyway. I’ve been happy to lend them small amounts in the past but that routine gets pretty old (I’d be happy to simply gift them that money as they are often short toward the end of the week so theoretically that would catch them up…but I know that that won’t in actuality solve the problem). My partner recently got fed up with it all and let it all out at his sister for making bad choices, but when there are kids involved it’s difficult to say no.
HI Dave,
My own experience has taught me that behaviors are difficult to change. My mom is now widowed and is doing fine. She receives SS and has a decent savings and SS benefit with her lifestyle. Home is paid off. I don’t worry about her. My brother, well, he’d been loaned $50k from my parents, then halfway through the payback term, he stopped sending $$, my parents didn’t want to nag but were disappointed he was falling short of his commitment. The rest of the loan is a “gift” says my mom. Only last year on a visit my brother borrowed $40 because he had no cash, and I didn’t say a word, but he never paid it back. Hmm.
I chose not to stress, learn from my parents (and historical behavior). I “gifted” the $40 to lil brother, but now understand the stress my parents underwent.
For you, being wise and responsible has been your gift. Love your brother, he’s got time to figure things out. I’d prioritize my parents, esp. if they are really needing support. Your brother will only get it if you let him be. If it’s not life or death, don’t worry about it.
Good luck.
This is a problem I foresee in our future. My husband and I, and the 5 siblings we have between us, are mid-40s to mid-50s. We are the only ones who are preparing fully for retirement, and we are the only ones who have children who are likely to be in a position to help us when we are older. So we have a double safety net whereas the siblings have none. Three of the siblings have no children at all, and the other two have adult children (ages 28-35) who depend on them, which is worse than being childless as far as retirement is concerned.
We feel compelled to save extra because we think there is a good chance we’ll be caring for one or more siblings in our own retirement. Yes, it’s their own fault for not saving more, but we won’t have a happy retirement ourselves if we know that loved ones are suffering.
Why not talk to them now about their lack of safety net for retirement?
My mother-in-law has had finacial difficulties for over 20 years. In the begining,we gave her money or bailed her out on different occaisions and I was always frustrated with her ending up at the same place or using the money for purposes that didn’t seem like priority. So my approach now is simple. If we want to do something for her, or if it is a holiday/birthday instead of purchasing a gift or giving her money, we will pay a specific bill for several months, or purchase a specific item that she needs. When she was driving, we paid for her registration, or gave her gas cards, or bought her new tires for a present. This way it gives me some control on the money and it is up to me when I do something. I think it also minimizes the expectation that we will always help when she needs something (not a monthly payment).
As an international graduate student, I am dealing not only with making just enough to cover basic expenses, but also with my family in my home country, who do not seem to realize that although my stipend may seem like a lot in our native currency, I am not rich. I was requested by my father to send them an allowance monthly. I resented this because he was spending my stipend even before I started graduate school here, and because I cannot understand why I have to give them money, why can’t he just try harder to find work? He has not had a steady job in maybe 14 years, and is heavily in debt.
It sort of felt good to hear about a situation similar to mine, albeit the difference being I am not anywhere near in as good a position as Dave. I would like to read about what else other people have to say, because sometimes I feel so guilty being so resentful that I have to part with what I feel is a pretty significant amount every month (I send around 10% gross of my stipend per month). At the same time, I wouldn’t feel good anyway if I stopped sending money. What does one do?
I think if your parents never lifted a finger to help you and never fed or clothed or gave you shelter (which by bringing you into the world, they were obliged to do) but it just doesn’t seem like you have an amazing familial bond and it also comes across that your father is a bit of a lazy bum- if he is and is just waiting to get YOUR money and does nothing to contribute to his family’s financial needs- then I’d say tell him to “jump in a lake” but if he did the best he could and is absolutely unable to work or can’t find work, then why not help him out- Common, this is your dad. I think even if you give it with the mindset you have filled with resentment , it is poison. Keep it and “welcome to America” and screw dad.(metaphorically of course)
Well, I agree with some comments… this is one of the more intriguing posts and threads in a long time. Also I think I liked the different colors of comments and responses.
I agree with “the don’t lend money to the brother” school of thought. Potentially a different kettle of fish with the parents, though.
Some years ago (not in the recent financial mess, but something like 20 years ago) I got stuck with tax liens because I had sold some refinanced real estate without enough cash to pay taxes. So I went on payment plans. I asked my lawyer cousin what I could do. When he couldnt get the amount reduced, he paid it off himself after I signed an IOU note to him, with much lower interest rate than the government wanted. I paid him off regularly, and at the very end he forgave the last payment or two (I had paid off the principal back to him and the rest was some interest.) Those were the days when I had little money and all family assumed the only way I would make it would be to marry someone with more money than I. Well, I am very grateful to my cousin who lent me the money. I ended up getting my financial house in order, have now no CC debt, and have money in savings, 401K, IRAs, equities. And I married a very frugal women with no money; her frugal ways have helped me tremendously and so I save much more than I spend.
So while “never lend to relatives” is a good idea in theory and to which I also agree, it is always (in my opinion) should be on a case by case basis. Some people are deadbeats and will always look for an angle to soak others. Avoid them. But maybe some are real and sincere and can turn their lives around. My lawyer cousin took a chance on me, and I am grateful for it. He and I remain close to this day.
And I do wonder what I would do if one of my siblings, who is always on the edge, asked for help. I think she is too proud, but so far it hasn’t happened. She has managed and he son now is in graduate school so it seems she has coped.
My parents are gone, but I believe I would have helped them if they wanted or needed it. But what might have been is history now.
Wouldn’t it be a lovely act of kindness and surprise to send your sister a big fat check for nothing. Just because she has never asked and you KNEW she had little. I am not sure frugal wife would see it but frugal seems such a sad word.A tightness- a lack of generosity the gawds for people like your cousin. Hope your sister is okay.
I just told my brother not to expect any money from me until he gets his life together. He’s living a subsidized life, working barely full-time and not trying to get a better job (or look into grad school). My parents, who are subsidizing his life, are working over 40 hours a week at very difficult jobs.
I’m very, very angry about it.
I know what you mean. My mom is in her late 60’s and is still working and supports my brother (you name it, provides a place to live, food, pays for doctor’s visits) She can basically never afford to retire even though she is not in the best of health. My father is in his late 70’s on a small fixed income and gives money every week to my brother (cigarettes and alcohol allowance). My brother is in his 40’s and doesn’t work, nor does he try to find a job. It’s hard not to feel angry.
I supported my parents till they passed away – it is not easy but in my opinion any decision in this area would depend not on the situation on hand by how this situation arouse. My parent were careful with money all their lives, earned well and saved, bought a lovely apartment, had a summer house and land and, most importantly, money in the bank.
But then the inflation of the early 1990s in Eastern Europe struck and all their savings were wiped out; they still had their real estate but it was all non-income denerating. So I helped and I will never regret it.
Generally, I would help people who have had, what I call their crisis. Before that there is not much point – people can be relied upon to act in the same way as they did before and to get the same result.
JD, you are right – if your brother has not had his crisis he is going to spend the money and will not be able to return it to you.
i love these comments–such creative ideas for dealing with the financial petitions of others, whether they’re family or not. Fortuntely, so far, i, as the mother, am doing okay and my kids are doing okay (they’re both 35+ and established). my daughter was the spendthrift in the group but I have to say she got it from me. Both of us have mended our ways. As a young person, she was constantly in c/c debt (but so was I) so not in a position to help her there (and wouldn’t just on principle) but I would fund education, like I helped her with her student loans and paid for a course or two for her. Sent her a LOT of Suze Orman books..LOL. I guess, unwittingly, that panned out for both of us and I was tickled to another commenter leave the money book on the coffee table for her sister. Just as aside, at 64, a money lesson that has stood me in good stead, is NEVER borrow money or lend money to a friend (or really anyone for that matter). You can help them and ask for help, and by borrow, I mean like enough money to make you nervous to ask them, not $20, til next payday because someone stole your wallet, not because you HAD to buy those shoes!! Loved the women who stopped by her mother’s house with the meals for a week and the visit. If I needed help financially, that would be a lovely way for my children to help me, preserving all of our dignities and fostering a bond. At any rate, I’m bookmarking this article for the comments.
My family probably won’t ever need me to help out, but my SO’s family might. The thing is, there are people he would be willing to help, and there are ones that he wouldn’t…and the ones he’d be willing to wouldn’t accept it!
I think the best Dave can do is to help them (the brother’s family) out on occasion. Be generous with the gift cards at Christmas. Give the kids nice shoes on birthdays so they don’t have a reason to spend money on new ones. As for the parents, offering to help Dad with a car repair and bringing Mom groceries for the week can go a long way. Dave doesn’t have to take full responsibility for his relatives, but there are ways to make the burden easier on them without becoming the family ATM.
I’ve read these comments with interest as this is a subject my husband & I have wrestled with for years.
I signed my mother-in-law up for Dave Ramsey’s Financial Freedom class and took the class with her because my husband & I were so concerned about her precarious financial situation. The result? She paid a lot of lip service to being on board but in reality did nothing to change her habits. That was 5 years ago.
Since then she has accumulated $30K in revolving debt (that amount does not include an auto loan), sold her townhome as a short sale & moved into a rental apartment, and is battling depression. She has zero savings. She is fortunate to be in wonderful health @ age 71 but has not worked in about 17 years. She inherited money & property at that time and spent, spent, spent–on clothes, travel, etc. She is a recreational shopper but unwilling/unable to admit there is a problem. She has a few remaining income payments from the sale of the last of the land she inherited–about another 4 years’ worth. After that she will be unable to even pay her rent on her social security benefits, and with no savings or retirement funds she “doesn’t know” what she will do then.
We have suggested for years that she find an part-time job to bring in additional income–she refuses to consider it. We have gifted her money to “tide her over”–and we really did consider it a gift, not a loan–but my willingness to ‘help’ dwindled recently, after she immediately bought herself some new dress boots that she “really needed” and gave our 14-year old son a jar of peanut butter for his Christmas present this year.
We have asked her for years to go to a reputable financial counselor who could give her unbiased advice–we even offered to pay for it. She refused.
She lives in the same town as we do but our relationship is strained for reasons beyond the financial issues. As you can probably tell, her choices reveal her essentially self-absorbed nature.
My husband & I have struggled through 4 extremely lean years during job downsizing, income loss, etc. Thankfully we are in a stable period now, but we have catching up to do on our financial goals. My fear is that in 4 years we will have our oldest child going off to college–and my MIL potentially homeless unless she gets considerable financial support.
What to do? Having her over for dinner is tolerable. Usually. Having her live under our roof is…impossible to imagine.
Suggesting a 71 year old woman, who battles depression, find a part time job is like saying for me to swim across the lake. I could- but I might drown doing it. Recreational shopping is quite common for depressed elder women – sadly enough it is how many get the interaction they so desire.
Even you have had a difficult time with income….
I totally “get” the boots and peanut butter—IF your son loves peanut butter and she got the boots on super sale. Your son probably looks like he has everything he needs (that is NOT a slight- just most 14 year olds either want something very expensive—and have everything else). Would you have felt better if she had taken your money and bought your son a great present?
Has she always kept the money for herself? Never taken you on a trip or helped you with a house? For her son? Has some of the recreational shopping for the 13 years before she got into trouble ended up on your door?
Have you checked out that she is getting the highest SS possible? Is she a widow of a veteran? Have you considered helping her find a smaller place to live- possibly in a senior area where people are used to walking and chatting with neighbors? Does she have skills- sewing/handiwork that she could sell at trade shows?
Help her contact her church and see if they have a place where elderly get together. If you can help her find another outlet, she may be happier and less apt to spend money filling her loneliness.
I suggest not gifting money. It is a sore spot with you. Gift her your time and food. She sounds like she can still pay rent- let her do it.
Don’t cut her off at the time she needs you the most. There is no up side to that. Your own son will most likely treat you the way you treat her. Step lightly.
Jan, you bring up some valid points. I didn’t do the best job describing the situation clearly…and it is complicated. We have helped & will continue to help, it has just been frustrating @ times.
To clarify: The depression is a very recent issue (coincided with more serious $ troubles–totally understandable).
The peanut butter would have been a funny gift–it was intended to be–for our PB-loving son, except that he’s been intensely brand-loyal for more than 10 years and she got him another brand. Which made him feel unknown by her, which got my mama bear going a bit (because he is unknown by her, but now he knew it). I would rather have had her give him nothing (or, as we suggested, the gift of some time together. Granted, spending time with a 14-year old boy isn’t everyone’s cup of tea!).
I should have substituted the phrase “compulsive shopper” or “addict” for the phrase “recreational shopper”. It is indeed a severe problem.
More than once she has chosen to pay extra on her credit cards and skipped paying her rent. Then we get a phone call.
The boots would have been 100% understandable…if we hadn’t helped load up carfuls of clothing with tags still on (from her closet) for her to “donate” to a thrift shop. I thought my husband was going to become physically ill.
Anyway, it is complicated. I am flawed. She is flawed. Extending grace & support with reasonable boundaries–that is the goal.
While I genuinely sympathise, perhaps you need to consider whether or not your son’s response was appropriate.
For a 14 year old to be so brand loyal that getting a generic jar of peanut butter upsets him so strikes me as very odd.
By all means, a 14 year old might be disappointed with a jar of peanut butter (strikes me as perfectly healthy for the average teen!)
But to be upset over the *type* of peanut butter? Sorry – I can’t appreciate why this would be a big issue
I disagree wholeheartedly with Jan’s sentiments for a lot of reasons. It’s difficult to capture or even relate the dysfunctionality of familial relationships in a brief comment. There was nothing in Keelermom’s post that indicated she was giving up or abandoning her mother. Quite the contrary, it was evident to me that there is lingering hurt, concern and frustration, and rightfully so.
I almost chuckled aloud when she said her mother brought her son some peanut butter for Christmas, that’s insane. What an incredibly thoughtless gift? Not to be harsh, but that’s pathetic. I will readily concede that sometimes pre-teens do want expensive things, but there are a lot of things at reasonable price points that he would have probably loved, movie tickets, gift card to a video game store, a simple polo, etc.
My point is that it is easy to tell someone who feels slighted to continue to give as if someone’s emotional and fiscal resources are inexhaustible. Parents are entitled to be self-indulgent and irresponsible just because they are the parent. Parents should give some thought to their children’s households and their burdens.
My simple advice, Keelermom, try not to pre-worry. Forge ahead and live your life, setting the foundation for generating wealth. Don’t give any more unsolicited to your Mom. Love yourself and your family well. Wish her all the best. Don’t give anything begrudgingly nor with regret. Decide what you or by extension your family will do, establish boundaries.
Best wishes…..
Thank you! I appreciate you reading between the lines of my comment. I agree, no point worrying about potential issues now–life is for living! Setting boundaries has always been problematic for my husband & I. We are both oldest children who want to please our parents. Part of my frustration stems from our seeming inability to do that in this case! Whatever we do, or do not do, is met by criticism.
You are 100% right in your last paragraph! 🙂 Words to live by!
I agree. Even a $5 gift certificate to McDonald’s is a far better choice for a teenager. Or a few packs of Reese’s Peanut Butter Cups. The “need” for boots and a weird gift like peanut butter for Christmas really express her strange way of thinking (and spending), and I wouldn’t supplement that any more, either.
As far as what you can do…do whatever you’re comfortable with and not one thing more. No cash! I’ve seen a lot of great suggestions on here…offer to pay a bill, buy some groceries, etc. Until she makes some changes, all you can do is offer some slight help.
I think you’re teaching your son some good lessons. Obviously you’ve tried to help your mother out. SHE is the one behaving irresponsibly. If you were to behave like that some day, you would probably want your son to put his foot down and not enable you.
Thanks for your comment–I think you “get” 14-year old boys pretty well! 😉 PB cups would have made his DAY! Although he does love PB (see above reply). Thankful for the great ideas for other ways to help out that have been shared, they are great. Constantly marvel that my husband is the product of his parents!
We hope to learn from both the good & bad examples that have been set.
Can you look into local subsidized housing now before it’s a crisis? She may qualify for other services too. Better to plan now than to wait until the last minute.
Let the brother hang himself.
Help the parents out as you are willing and able and as they need it. Honor your mother and your father with your financial assistance.
As long as there is not some destructive behaviors on the part of your parents that you would be enabling…if you are able to keep their heads above water you should.
Well, I haven’t had this kind of issues yet, but my parents have experienced them with my oncle.
My oncle graduated from high school and married very soon, he never went to college because his wife didn’t wanted to. She married him thinking that he was from a rich familly, while he wasn’t. My grandparents have very good manners and are very polite, they have inherited some nice furniture, but they are not rich.
My oncle obtained a good job (with help from his grandad’s friend) which he screwed to get a compensation for leaving it. They spent all the money in going to France when that was a luxury for spanish people. He opened two or three business that didn’t work (selling and reaparing computers, teaching IT to user level, etc). My parents supported him buying him computers and singin us for its classes.
But also loaned lot of money, and my family was doing fine but not capable to provide fo an extra family. He never paid back, my grandparents did (he doesn’t knows and never even said thanks for the loan/gift). I don’t know how much money my gandparents loaned him, but a lot. Plus they paid him bills, bought stuff from him (something my mother and siblings also did). He sold lot of the family “jewels” (antique furniture, etc) and my mother had to buy some that my mother asked my parents to stop giving because she wasn’t able to keep buying him more stuff. And, stuff we didn’t need to.
To have an idea when my grandparents inherited some money, they paid the mortgage for an small apartment and give the rest to their four children. One of them bought a business, other bought a car, my parents used the money for a down payment for their first house and my oncle and his wife spent all the money in luxuries.
When he divorced his wife and was unemployed, my parents took at his place for almost ten years and paid a lot for the lawyers, etc. As soon as he earned some money he bought a fancy car instead of paying back his debts with the family or helping them with the bills. He married again and meet my grandparents once or twice a year, very bad considering he lives just a few miles from there.
My grandparents are now in a tricky financial position, it’s fine but can get bad. They never were good with money, but they will be so much more better if they didn’t had to support his resource draining son.
My parents might need to help my 4 grandparents, they are very old and not in a good position to care manage their money. But we know we will not help my oncle again.
And by the way, as if we were cursed, my brother is doing more or less the same. He is failing year after year in college (fortunately fees are so much more cheaper in Spain (almost free compared with US or UK ones) and lives with my parents so it’s not a big drain of money. I will help my parents as they have helped me, recently I offered them my small savings (I’ve just started to work and get decently paid) for a new car or my sisters education, but I will not help my brother as he is not doing nothing and wasting his live playing computer games and being the slave of a whore.
This topic is one of the best I have seen on GRS. I married a solid, responsible woman that somehow emerged from a family of irresponsible spenders and non-planners.
We are now in our mid-30s, and her mid-60s parents have a marriage of middling at best quality and distrust around money.
My guess is that they have less than $30k set aside for retirement. They run a small business together that has essentially no value for sale and no equity maintained. Their house is in a great neighborhood in an attractive city, and is falling apart from neglect.
This year they borrowed money to pay taxes and I saw a credit card bill of nearly $20,000 open lying out.
Her mother was left a significant sum (probably in the 250k-500k range) by her brilliant and successful father, which she does not share with her spouse because he will squander it. With the money, she takes lavish trips around the world with a tour group 2-4 times per year.
When our son was born, they could not find the means to buy a decent modern crib or even a play yard at their house (with 5 pets) for our son to sleep in. But she did have money for a 3-week trip to Asia. So when we visit we stay in hotels at our expense.
Long story short- my biggest fear is that one day, after we have made sacrifices and tradeoffs as a family of three for our retirement, our son’s education, and our own dreams, my wife’s parents will show up on the door asking for help, and perhaps even shelter.
I’m not a coldhearted person, and I am not going to tell my wife we will leave them in the street. But if we are to take them on as a burden and they have any assets, I will only do so if they give me COMPLETE power of attorney over their house and bank accounts.
Of course, if there’s nothing left, well, that’s an uglier picture.
I agree with the “if we have to take them in then they need to give me power of attorney” thinking. With responsibility (they assume you are responsible for them) should come control. It’s normal.
A couple of possibilities, based on a value system that says “not everybody has the same strengths or talents” . . . .
If you have family that struggles and you’ve established your own short and long-term security, either set up trusts for those family members that need them (and they don’t need to know about the trusts existence) or set up an account for family emergencies, the same way you’d set up an account for personal emergencies.
It’s wise to remember in all aspects of life that not everyone attempting to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps have the fortune to have unbreakable straps. There but for the grace of whatever-power-you-hold-sacred . . .
Good for you guys. We need to give money almost $ 3,000 a month for my wife’s parents. Three thousand is the basic expenses alone. If they want to travel or have a party, they will ask another $ 200-400.
I begun to look for work instead of starting a business which is I’m good at. I look at our cash flow, there is no more room for error. Everything is eaten up. Sometimes, I ask myself if it is worth it coming to America, if we are here just to work and let somebody spend it.
Unfortunately, I also have several family members (mostly extended) that are constantly having financial issues. We are not a really close family, but I have always believed that we can count on the others in times of need.
I am re-thinking that though. There have been a couple times in the past that my wife and I have loaned money to some relatives. And subsequently been taken for a ride. There was the “loan just for a week” to keep them out of foreclosure that took 5 years to repay. Also the money to pay for methadone treatments.
My wife and I have now decided that if they need help in the future, we will make sure that they have the basics (food, shelter, electricity, etc.). We will pay the bills directly to the electric company or buy them groceries, but will not just give them money. It sounds harsh, but we cannot afford to continue to just give money away.
I think it depends on the situation. I know when I was young with a child (got married too young to a less than stellar man, surprise!) I didnt need cell phone money I needed bus money to get to school and part time job and to pay the babysitter so I could do so. And the times my family sent me $100 here and there so I could do so kept me in school and from poverty. They were all financially more than able to help me which makes a difference.
JD – please do a follow up post once Dave makes some decisions about his family and what, if anything, they choose to do to offer assistance. It’s interesting to me that the advice has been so consistent, in general, over 200 comments… pretty rare.
Many a man’s nose was broke by his own mouth. – Old Irish adage
And so it is with family gone financially bad. 99 out of 100, they made the bed they now have to lay in.
But sometimes, the 1 out of 100 really got screwed, and this is where you should never say never. Case by case, say I.
The problem is, most financially secure people are also highly ethical and motivated people also, and thusly it is easier to mine their guilt field (the one you have as a result of doing a better job of your life than others) … and this is where you get into trouble.
Giving cash in most situations is like buying an alcoholic another drink – don’t do it.
But the other creative suggestions of help already listed here are certainly good ideas.
Do what you can, but don’t dent yourself doing it. Parents … are another story. Unless they are completely amoral, you really have to go the extra mile — when required and as able.
I make a point of living well below my means and letting others think I am barely making ends meet, when in fact it is quite the opposite.
And I know how offended I would be if I lent a family member money – and besides not getting repaid, observed their debtful lifestyle (the big screen TV, for example) go on as normal.
That would bother me.
Neither a borrower or lender be … is pretty good advice.
Loaning money to family members usually only sets the stage for family wars. But always allow for the exception to the rule … you never know.
JD, I have read every comment on this post. Clearly, this is a topic that cant be discussed enough, and is something we all struggle with.
I will share my story a bit, too. My parents are in terrible financial shape; they are deeply in debt with no intention of paying it off. They are 63 and 59, with almost nothing saved for retirement. They have a rent controlled apartment but no assets. They also care for my little sister, who is severely retarded.
My mom doesn’t know if shell ever be able to retire, which kills me because she hates her job, and also has to look after my sister and sick dad. My brother and I are totally willing to support them when the time comes, but with all the medical expenses we just don’t know where its going to come from.
They have (reluctantly) asked us for money on a few occasions. We are happy to help because they did everything to raise us. Recently, my dad, who is a spendthrift, asked for money for a new iPad. We told him we would pay but we wanted to talk it over with him first, and tried to make him reconsider, to no avail. I am now actually worried that we gave him such a hard time, he won’t want to ask for help from us anymore. Although we think he needs to manage their money better, we are still willing to help him buy things that give him pleasure. As I said, he is sick, and may only have a few years left.
So yeah, it’s a messy and painful topic, with no right answers. But its something I would love to discuss more on this blog. The NYTimes and other sites often talk about this situation for baby boomers, but it is nice to hear from people a little closer to my age. (I’m 25)
What do you think what I should do: My sister has debt over 140 000 dollars and she hasn´t changed her spending habits. It is terrible to watch she got herself deeper and deeper in trouble. Should I talk straight to her saying her lifestyle is making bad for her and her children? Should I say why she has to change her furniture in every half a year even she has not afford? She would get angry and mad and sad, but could it help anything? It is so hard to just watch… Please do you have any advices??
I was raised below the poverty line, and my parents still struggle financially. My parents are 63 and 65; my dad is a spendthrift and my mom hides money from him so he won’t spend it. Even though they have very little, some of my dad’s nieces and nephews still feel free to ask them for money. They are all on welfare, have children and grandchildren they can’t afford, deal drugs, you name it. Their mother, my aunt, once bought some of her grandkids shoes since she didn’t trust the parents with cash to buy them. She later found out that the shoes were returned to the store for cash, and the children had no shoes.
My mother says that the day my cousin’s wife showed off her fancy new manicure, and my mother had just given them grocery money, she decided not to give them any more money. The only professional manicure she’s ever had was when I treated her to one for Mother’s Day. She’s been giving them money for 30 years, though, so I can’t imagine that she’ll be able to stick to it.
Recently the cousin who returned his kids’ shoes for money tried to friend me on Facebook. No thanks. I moved to a different state to get away from these people!
No doubt I will be supporting my parents in their old age, which I will do despite all of their terrible money decisions. I love my mother and would never let her go without, just as she would never see me do the same.
My parents have a huge credit card debt and a mortgage they can’t pay because my mom is the only one with a job right now, and has been for the past 6 months. They came to me and my brother to share their situation, and their attack plan to overcome this. They asked our opinions on what they were doing to stay afloat, and if there was any way we could help.
Instead of giving them money (and just hoping they do the right thing), I offered to take over my little sister’s tuition.
I’ve felt very good with this decision. I’m freeing some money for them to use however they see fit, but most importantly, I’m making sure my sister continues the education she deserves despite of my parents’ situation.
After forty plus years as an adult, I have found that most money problems have nothing to do with money. Money problems usually have everything to do with life style. I have given and loaned tens of thousands of dollars to relatives. Most gifts were really needed, but the relatives have continued to exercise bad choices after being bailed out. Some refuse to take responsibility for their own lives, and hand out blame left and right. Case in point: my MBA degreed brother gets into binds all the time and begs my ninety year old father to help him with the mortgage. I just found out the wife is a jewelry hoarder and their property is stuffed with purchases that could be converted to cash. I have taken responsibility for my parents welfare and can’t help any more. I am fed up. My take now: giving people money and help is basically enabling. On the other hand, many charities waste money. Find one that spends less than 15% on administrative expenses. AnnW
Respect your siblings and let them take care of themselves. Instead, help your parents at the end of life, and your nieces/ nephews at the beginning. We have a family tradition of making dedicated investments for new babies. Less than $500. for an infant now will pay for a semester of college in 18 years. One grandparent on each side, one aunt and another aunt/uncle can fund half the cost of an education, and that is a big help to everyone.
But not everyone can do that, so remember the real currency of a family is love, not money. Love costs nothing to give, but is the most precious contribution you can make.
My sister spends her disability on vodka in a matter of days. She then expects me to keep dishing money out for her cigarettes until she has money again. Also expects me to give her food. We are on a tight budget so i have to loan rather than give but the last few times hasnt paid me back so i have had to go to the money shop. Distressed and fed up. Hubby says just say no but one day she came round 16 times.
Seems like everyone on this thread is acting like family members who need help financially are losers who don’t have enough money because they have gone into debt buying stupid stuff like big-screen TVs, boats, ATVs, etc. I’m sure that’s the case for some people, but aren’t any of you aware that the economy is collapsing? What about the people who’ve lost their job, used up all their unemployment benefits, lost their home to foreclosure, can’t get on disability, and can’t get another job? They have NO INCOME. How are they supposed to budget and set up an emergency fund, savings, pay off their mortgage, etc., like financial advisors say to do? What is your advice for helping these people? There are getting to be more and more people in that boat, thanks to greedy corporations and corrupt politicians. You can’t tell these people to live more frugally – they are already living as frugally as anyone possibly can! Their problem is not that they are spending too extravagantly or going into debt – their problem is they don’t have any income. You all seem to have the “I’ve got mine” mentality. If your brother, sister, parent, or child needs help, do you just tell them it’s too bad, you’re not going to help them, even though you’re living in a McMansion and have plenty of money in the bank? If you ask me, the answer is to help them start a business. That way you are “teaching them to fish” rather than just “giving them a fish.” That seems a lot kinder than letting your own family starve and undergo tremendous hardship. If someone offered me financial advice along with help starting a business, I’d be extremely grateful and would follow the advice to the letter. But right now the advice to put money away, get out of debt, etc., does me no good, because I have no income. I can understand now why some people commit suicide over financial matters. Seriously, the selfishness and greed in this country make me sick.
I so agree with you.
We help people on the street (some of us) My feeling is, this is family and if I have sufficient for my needs, why would I NOT help someone else. I’d help my friends.
Of course I’d help my brother- I wouldn’t even consider a loan…This is my brother/sister. I can’t believe that people have so many excuses about why NOT to help your own siblings/parents etc.
Put aside the “He hasn’t touched his 401K” or “He is irresponsible” You could wake up in the morning with a life=altering condition and never be able to touch your illustrious wealth.
Use it to help your family while you can.Don’t even question it. Give from a place of great generosity and spread it around to those who are closest to you.It isn’t about the money.It is about making sure that others in your family (the less fortunate-less smart) are also doing well. It is about being kind and human.How much money do you need?
act of kindness is dead…. People became so selfish they dont even bother to think about a brother or a sister who are in need…. Arrogance in its peak….
I am that sibling. MOm and two sisters helped me alot over the years. My work was being automated or I was downsized many times not fired, not my fault. Also I was not lucky to marry someone with a good income to carry me through the hard times. I am single. What I find unfair is I have a little sister and brother who dont help me, except my brother send me xmas money and at times bday money. I was going hungary once and asked my little sister and she said no. I hated going to the same two for help over the years, but I have done alot for them in other ways like minding their children, etc. Now I am again in a situation I need help with money, I dont have a credit card since the global recession hit, I sent 2400 resumes since 2009 and cant find any work, I have no way to make any money to help me out of a bad situation so I can move. Some of their kids have designer pink laptops at age 10, dont think I am asking for too much I am their family. There is no one else to ask who can help me. I have seen one sister run to her best friend and give her the world in a crisis that she would not do that for me, she would knock me down to make me think I have it better than her friend. SOmetimes I think if on helps they beat their chest and brag and it has a way of making the person who needs help feel very low. That is not fair.
Jane, I have rotten sisters also that did nothing when myself and my 13 year old daughter found ourselves abandoned by our husband/father and I couldn’t find work. Even though I was around 50 and looked young, no one would hire me. I was stupid to not have my own career instead of relying on a husband. I did work for over 10 years back in my 20s to 30s, but times have changed and clerical work isn’t what is was then. I had to learn computer, etc. and finish college but even that only got me temp jobs. All the while my 2 smug sisters were depending on husbands’ salaries and enjoying a normal lifestyle. My mother helped me out when I couldn’t make ends meet and now many years later when she has dementia, my older sister is executor. Well, I found out she called mother’s lawyer to the house for a meeting to put it in mother’s will that I owe every cent of the money that mom gave me. It didn’t work since mother wasn’t that bad with dementia and could object at the time, but the point is that she was vicious enough to do that so that eventually when Mom died I would have that taken out of my portion of the will. I think my two sisters are laughing at my plight and delight in feeling smug that they are so much better of than me. I wish I wasn’t even born into this family!!! I don’t want to see them at all!!! If I was you in your situation, I would try to totally avoid socializing with them at all!!!
I’m sorry to hear about your difficulties. I’m also sorry that you probably won’t like hearing what I think. You need to help yourself, not expect help from siblings; they have already helped you in the past. It doesn’t matter that your sister’s child has pink laptop and that your sister helps her friend. That’s her life, her choice. She doesn’t owe you. Sorry. And good luck.
I’m on the same boat. My parents have always been in some sort of financial mess since I was a kid. We grew up well-of but soon realized that there are some problems and my family had debts here and there. When I started working, I paid for my college education and gives a fair amount of share for our expenses in the house. Right now, Me and my partner still lives with my parents because we had to give up our apartment for us to share rent with them and help them out with my brother (who’s also staying with my parent) and just recently had a kid. I had no problems helping out, I paid for my brother’s college and part of my sister’s college education too. Me and my partner pays rent and also gives share for groceries. We were laid off but still worked odd jobs to make sure we pay them the basic necessities we need to. When we finally got back to work and started catching up with all the bills that piled up, my mom continuously asks for money every time she fell short (paycheck to paycheck) and the last time I get paid, I gave her her share and paid the rest of my money to my other bills that I was left with just the basic for gas and food for work- she then asked if we can pawn some of my things because she doesnt have any money anymore and while I am not a materialistic person, I said no not only because I value the things I invest on, but also I gave her more than I could that there’s really nothing left for me anymore, and even if I dont have any extra cash left, I have never considered pawning off my things. She, of course, pulled off this “you’re very ungrateful, and I knew Id be old and lonely and alone and Ill die on the streets” drama that she always does when I said no. While, I feel her and I am very thankful for everything she’s done, I am also a grown woman trying to make my way through a difficult situation and a difficult life. As I try to give them more than I can, it still ends up not being enough and at the end of the day, regardless of what I do, I’m still the ungrateful kid who said no.
One governing factor: “Do not let other people’s life choices affect your own.” If they have messed up, especially if repeatedly, it is not up to you to bail them out.
First there may be gratitude
Second comes expecting
and the dreaded third: dependence.
So, I was 31 when my mom passed away, at the early age of 53. I’m in the Army, and was put on orders to move 10 hours away to another state, about a month before she passed. I pushed my orders back for 30 days so I could be there for my mom. I chose to move out of my own house and into hers so I could help take care of her for her last month there, plus I wanted to be there. My dad and my brother (he was 30) lived at the house with her, but I needed to be there for her too. I went funeral “shopping” about a week before the doctors put her in hospice care, because I knew it wouldn’t be long. It was the hardest thing to do, especially when I’d talk wit her at night time. Anyways, my mother ran the house. My dad just did what she told him, and my brother has been in and out of jail for the past 15 years, you know how that goes. I kept telling my mom to stop giving him all of her money because he basically lived off of her. Well, during my month stay, I had to organize all of their bills, figure out how much income they had, and when to pay what bills; what items they had to let go because of repossession, etc.. They became foster parents and adopted two boys about 4 years prior to this, so their income was ONLY the settlement you get (about $2,000 a month total income). I completely figured everything out for them, for when she would leave this earth. Well, needless to say, I found the cheapest place in the area for the funeral and I had to pay for it since they had NO money saved up. In fact, I had to give money to my dad because they owed the state money for overpayment. Well, 10 days after the funeral, I reported to my new state and attempted to move on with my life, and then deployed 3 months later. However, my sister went to jail that month, and my dad went a few months later. My mom’s house was paid for but when my dad went to jail, my brother moved everything out of the house and rented an old house in a different city, with no job and a girlfriend with 5 kids. They just had a kid of their own, so now that’s 6 kids, and no jobs.
Ok, to the point. My dad is out of jail, in his house with no electricity, no money, no vehicle, and not even a lawnmower. He is 60 now and has only a bicycle, a couch, an empty house, and no job. My brother lives about 30 minutes from him, and has all of my dad’s belongings, including the car. I’ve heard he’s had yard sales the past few moths, but who knows. Well, my dad is not allowed to live with him because of certain legal reasons, the reasons he went to jail. My dad’s electricity can’t get turned on because his account is overdue as well as having my brother’s address in my dad’s account, which is also overdue. They’ve asked me for money several times, but it’s over $600 at a time. If I pay one thing this month, who pays it next month? I’ve given my brother a little money this year already, but I will not let him leach off of me like he did my mother. And my dad, I just feel sorry for him, but he let my brother do these things to him.
Anyways, how obligated should I feel to help them out? I feel horrible because I refuse, but like most have said, you’re just encouraging the dependency that they’ve had, especially my brother. They expect me to just give them my money because “we have the babies here and all”. I chose to leave that town at 18. I chose to obtain a career, get a few degrees, buy a house, etc. My brothers girlfriend even emailed me while I was in Afghanistan to borrow money for their rent. The only time I heard from my dad since before I deployed, was when he got out of jail(9 months) and I was already home. Not a word from him while I was gone, and yep, he asked me for about $600.
I feel bad for not “helping” them, but it’s really not helping anyone by just giving handouts, plus I don’t make that much anyways! Should I feel as bad as I do for turning my back on my “family”?
I’ll give some backstory…
My parents raised me to abhore debt, work hard and live within my means. At some point something switched for them. They bought a house while neither of them had a job (and hadn’t for years, government assistance all the way). They actually bragged about the fact that they hadn’t made a mortgage payment in 3 years, shortly before the back repo’d the house. They filed for bankrupcy to get rid of credit card debt.
They have chosen to live in a RV with my 3 younger siblings, traveling from one set of grandparents to another. My grandparents have been housing them, feeding them, giving them money for gas and other things. My dad’s parents just paid their phone bill for the year.
They have also expected my husband and I to bail them out financially whenever they want. DH works at the bank they have an account at (never more than $5 in it), and often they ask us to put money in it so they can pay a bill. Mostly car related bills right now.
Last week my mother called and “asked” if my husband would go pick up the registration for the RV. She claimed my grandfather would mail him a check. We talked about it and told her she needed to try and do it herself first. (He’s talked with the town clerk, she said if they get a pre-paid Visa she can do it over the phone and mail it to them.) She hemmed and hawwed and said she’d try. We told her if that didn’t work we would do it. They have till the end of August to register it.
Well, I got a phone call this morning. Instead of doing what we asked, she convinced a family friend to do it for her. Mom said it would only be $10 and she would mail the check right out afterwards. It cost $28 not $10, and the family friend pawned her jewelry to do it. My mom told her that I would cover it… without asking. (Still hasn’t called.)
Lately my parents have made promises to a lot of people and haven’t kept them. I often end up having to shoulder the load. I’m on bed rest right now and simply can’t keep it up.
We are done. We’ve bailed them out in the past, but feel we are just enabling them. I’ve gotten to the point where if my parents decide to cut off contact with me (again), or bad mouth me to family (again) I know that is their choice and not my fault.
We’re not sure how to set boundaries with them, or even what boundaries to set. Can you help? Has anyone else been through this?
Same here!
When i was still at school my folks did alright for themselves, but when the 2007-8 recession hit things quickly went pear shaped. I had to pull out of college cause they couldn’t afford for me to be there anymore – it was one of the hardest things i’ve ever had to deal with. Luckily they’ve stabilized but retirement is an issue after the knock they took.
I’m finally in a position where i can start saving and building for my own future. I’ve met a wonderful beautiful women who i’ve managed to con into marrying me. Only problem is, her mother (my mother in law to be) is an absolute nightmare in most respects including money.
Already I am paying over a substantial amount of money over to her on a monthly basis, just so that she can survive. to add to this almost on a 3 monthly basis a new crisis pops up and i end coughing up extra! I really wish i could just throw her into the sea and be done with it! But ‘what if it was my mother?’
I wish there was a solution to this but there isnt. I sustaining someone i hate for someone i love at the expense of our future. I really sucks!
You know what, you need to ask yourself the question: how did my wonderful woman’s mother survive before you came along. You say that you need to keep giving her money, but obviously she’s survived until now, and you’re just the latest sucker in a long line. No disrespect to you personally, but you get what I’m saying? You’re doing yourself or her no favors by enabling this bad behaviour. Good luck.
My sister lost her place when she lost her job a single mother of two army veteran. She asked my husband and I to move in with us with the agreement that she had a promising job lined up (which she got!) and that she would be out in 3 months. Now yrs ago someone helped us when we were in the same boat with our three kids but we stuck to our agreement and was out in a month 3weeks prbly. So we gave her 6 months to stay rent and utility free so that she could just save and move. Come the 5th month she asks for an extension because she needs to cross a few T’s and dot a few I’s…we agreed but the 7th month came she hasn’t got a dime saved, and her car is hanging on by a thread which will compromise her way to work. Not to mention I babysit her kids when she works 40-45 hrs per week for $40 ever two weeks and those are long hours a day, and I feed her family daily. I’m so frustrated and feeling like a prisoner in my feelings. And my poor husband who has been supportive up until recently when he found out she hasn’t been saving AT ALL! We aren’t rich were just financially responsible and if it means our bills are paid and we got a few bucks in our pockets so be it. Its just a little difficult to go on feeling like we’re being taken advantage of. What should I do?
Ive been financially helping brother and family for years. My mom freaks out if I don’t and she says brother will be on his feet soon. She’s been saying this for years. I don’t know how much longer I can keep this up. I buy them food and other gifts and money. And, my boss is thinking selling law practice in 4 1/2 years so I’m worried about not having saved financially for myself too. Brother has bad marriage and 3 of the 5 kids attend university with grant money from the state and federal government.
HELP.
In my case my parents never made much money raised 4 kids but saved nothing never bought a home still renting both are over 65 and on ss. But its not enough for to scrap by on. My younger brother never moved out and has helped them up tell now I have giveing them a $100 every few months to cover what he couldn’t do to bad choices the only job he’s had in years is at a fast food restaurant and now he’s disabled and can’t work . my other brother is worthless and can’t help him self sister berly getting by I am a truck driver who’s wife blows most of are money and fights me if I even ask where it gos that another store that will end in devore soon. I have a 18 still in high school . I fill like sence the others can’t I should but .I fill like if i help everone i be giveing up on ever retireing and have to work tell I dye. I have worked 70+ hours a week all my life but fill like I am burning out . I am only 44 . what do I do?
My fiancé is in a predicament. His parents are healthy and in their early 70s and have social security income, retirement and pension from both the U.S. and India, and also own a home which they rent out. They insisted that my fiancé take out a mortgage to buy them a house to live in. And that he furnish it for them, including televisions in the bedroom and living areas and satellite television with Indian channels. They also expect him to pay the mortgage. And all of their expenses, including cell phones and medical expenses. He earns only $38K, which is less than his parents’ combined retirement incomes. He has no savings as he has always supported them. They have significant savings and $45K annual income free and clear to do whatever they want with. They take trips to India, give more than a thousand dollars to the church each year, and save money for their two grandchildren. But what of their son, my finance? He has no money to support himself or to support a family of his own or to save for his own retirement – least of all contribute to our household when we marry. He can’t even buy me an engagement ring because all of his money goes to his parents. He has to work a second job or overtime if he has any significant financial needs. Why would parents who HAVE sufficient lifetime income demand that their son support them, leaving him penniless? If and when we marry I will have to support us and our retirement and our children on my own as he has nothing left after giving it all to his parents. He will not be able to contribute to our income or financial security. He has a brother as well who now lives in a separate household. I told him to sit down with his parents and put it all down on paper and show them how much he earns and how much he is spending on them and how much he has left – and also how much they earn. And then insist that they pay their own way, or at the very least a large portion of their own expenses – and then if they still insist on taking money from their children have he and his brother each contribute a small amount. I also told him to go to counseling with his parents, or or have his uncle and/or someone from the church sit in so that they will listen. I also have a son. I woukd never expect him to take care of me at the expense of himself, his family, or his future – and certainly not when I was able to care for myself. I love his parents, but I find their expecting their son to support them selfish – it would be different if he were well off or if they were impoverished … but that is not the case. I also don’t see this as a Christian thing to do. I understand there are cultural dynamics at play here, but surely as parents you want the best for your children, and culture or no culture what parent would allow a child to support them when that child clearly could not afford to do so?
My husband’s mother & stepfather have squandered their money for years! Squandered their 401k, squandered the money from the sale of their home, and squandered their money from a couple of settlements. My husband’s mother has always been a zero! Zero mother, zero mother in law, zero grandparent. Only calls when she needs money! She has had the last 25 years with her kids grown and gone and she still is broke. She has borrowed money from other siblings and has never repaid. We have decided not to help her financially as we are struggling with our own family needs. Giving her money will not solve her problem as she will be in the same situation again. I don’t think adult children should be responsible for financially negligent parents! They can apply for government help, not put our family in financial peril…..
It’s an interesting problem. I would say invest in your brothers financial education rather than just give him money. As you say he’ll be back in the same situation unless he changes his attitude towards money so you won’t be helping ultimately, only preserving his similar attitudes. If you bail him out he won’t have the opportunity to help himself. On the other hand some support can help people change. But ultimately we are all responsible for ourselves. If it was me and I could, I would offer some help financially. It depends on the relationships I suppose so will be different for everyone.
It’s a relief, though a very bitter one, to read so many similar stories of the struggle to decide to help support your family or not. I’ll add my tale to the list as I’m looking for help and advice.
Growing up in Kentucky, my family had a small grocery business and did okay for themselves. I went to college (the only kid from my family- first college grad) and worked through college to pay my way along with receiving student loans and federal grants. I now work in New York City and thankfully have a good job and a wonderful husband.
In college, my mom who always worked in the family business, got mixed up in some pretty bad stuff (drugs…meth) and went to prison. My grandfather passed away, who was the absolute rock of the family. I never knew my dad, so my grandfather was everything to me. My grandparents basically raised me and I love them very much. My mom never was really there for me though I saw her almost every day. My sister and brother grew up with my mom and her ‘husband’…I say husband loosely because he was an abusive psychopath who liked to throw her into walls and beat up my brother. My sister has since came forward to let the family know that my mother’s ‘husband’ abused her sexually. A very sad and sordid situation that even at a young age I knew to steer clear of. I was spared witnessing a lot of the pain, grief, and abuse my siblings went through. My heart hurts for them daily.
My mom got out of prison and became ‘herself’ again…I was SO proud of her. She really turned her life around and I thought the dark days were over. So much sadness over the years…I can’t even count the amount of nights I’ve spent crying over the whole situation. The state helped train Mom for a great job. She bought a little house and things seemed normal…then my brother moved in with his three kids. My brother is super messed up from living with my mother and her ‘husband’ and can’t keep a job…or just won’t work. Refuses to get any kind of therapy or help. My mom did everything for him and basically raised his kids for him and paid their way. My mom then got very sick (hepatitis C…from drug use), had to go on disability, and then lost her house last year. Mainly I think this was because she was supporting my brother (who is fully able to work) and his kids, but I digress.
My mom then moved in with my grandmother this year after she lost her house. I think it kind of messed her up emotionally, as it would anyone. I send them money sometimes and have given them much larger chunks of cash when I had it to easily give pre-2010 (my husband and I went through a rough patch financially and we’re just getting back on our feet). We went to visit my mom and grandma in January and I could tell that my mom was using again, but everyone acted like things were fine. Totally erratic behavior. Teeth missing. It was awful. Yesterday my grandma called and I forced her to tell me the truth after hearing some bizarre story about how their money got stolen and they needed cash to buy a new car. My mom is using again and will be going back to prison if she doesn’t enter rehab within 20 days. Just devastating news…especially after she’s been clean for twelve years. The first time my mom went to prison was horrible and literally destroyed my family. I was outside of the hurricane, but it left me with deep scars. Trust with my family seriously broken.
So, dear readers, my quandry is this- I had a long talk with my grandmother and sent her a check for $500 to help out. I have no desire to have any more to do with my mom and her drug issues. The icing on this s#it sandwich is that my sister says that my grandmother now has a serious issue with pharmaceuticaI abuse. My connection to my family (the family that I always knew and loved and cared for me) is hanging by a thread. Do I continue to send them money knowing that it’s a black hole?? I am tired of getting calls every week about the latest horrible thing that has happened to my family…it’s disruptive and I moved away from all of that hot mess for a reason. I WANT NO PART OF IT. I HAVE A GOOD JOB AND NEED TO KEEP IT. I WILL NEVER EVER GO BACK THERE. I feel guilty to cut my family out of my life completely, but I just don’t think things will ever change.
Brother isn’t working. Had his youngest placed in foster care by the state. Sister is working, but hubby is on disability but is a good dad to his kids. We’re all adults now…except for the adults. What would you do???
I am kind of in the same situation… I come from a very traditional Asian family whereas everyone pitch in and leave no one behind. My fiance and I are in our early 20’s and we are doing great for our age. However, we are already planning our retirement plan and getting our self a land so that we can live on it and work from home and this require us to save and invest. My only sister who is 12yrs older than me, made poor choices in life and landed herself with a broken marriage that lasted only a month. She had two kids with two different person and still believes finding a prince charming will solve everything. She doesn’t work because after donating her kidney to our brother (who have already passed on) took a toll on her. My parents are elderly and my dad still works to support them. I offer my help and give monthly allowances but it seem like its never enough. What pissed me off was when my fiance asked for permission for my hand in marriage, he stated that financial obligation may be limited since we will be starting a new family and he is also the only child from his fam so he has obligation there as well. We assured them that we will do our best but it doesn’t necessarily means that our paychecks combined will be used solely on them. They all agreed on this statement until the next day I texted my sister to assure her that I will always help her and her kids but it might not be as much but it’s something. I will give her a job when our business kick off. Next day I called my mom and asked if we should still purchase the land… was astounded to hear that she doesn’t want my fiance’s monetary gift to buy the land because she feel as if she’s selling me off. I was upset because this was a gift and we would have all lived on the farm that we were about to purchase. My mother goes on to say that my sister told her I texted and said that I will never help her and the kids again! Next shocker… I felt utterly betrayed by my sister’s lies. I lost my cool and cursed her for the first time in my life. I have always respected and looked up to her despite all her poor choices. Now I am looked upon with disdain because I have ultimately disrespected my elders. To hell with traditions… I followed through and this is what I get. Total betrayal. For my nephews sake I will still get the land and live nearby to help them out. I do feel a bit remorse for saying some things but I really had to draw the line. To make sure everyone gets a roof and get fed was my priority, but now I feel like I am being used by my sister.
Had a couple of friends who were much worse off than I am. I believed for a long time in giving them temporary help…then that temporary help turned into long term dependence. If you give money to people, they won’t respect you. They won’t respect your work or your financial goals and objectives. They only care about what money they can get from you.
They won’t reform, their situations won’t improve, they won’t hit success, they will only remain dependent.
So if someone asks you for money, give them money…once…and be fully prepared to kick them out of your life completely. Make sure they understand that asking for money WILL end the friendship.
I too have somewhat similar problem. My dad quit his job when i was 13 and because of that my mom had to work up till now when im 30. When he did tht she had to step in and as a result she has no savings and my dad used all of his too, some on us while we were studying. Most of my tuition fees i took a loan n as a result i hv a 90k student debt.
Since they used up most of their salary on us, like food, rent etc, now they’re making us feel like its an obligation for us to return the favour. N because im still single they feel i hv plenty disposable income to give in to their needs. I’m already providing 500 bucks monthly to them, on top of tht every now and then something in tht stupid old house gives way n needs repair or replacement. N its not small amounts its large amounts like 1000 here 500 there just for tht.
N when i started giving money for repairs i realized it became a habit. Now its no longer repairs n replacements, its rennovations like d kitchen cabinet for this month and then its next flooring after 2 months. This money i want to save for myself.
N when i say no one time, they’ll remember it n ask the next time and make me feel tht its n obligation.
N before they ask they’ll take me down a guilt trip saying things like ‘ i used all of my savings on all of you and now u hv good paying jobs.’ And start comparing to other kids who are providing more for their families.
Sometimes i feel like my mom doesnt want me to get married so she can hv me take care of things for her. Im her backup.
This whole thing is taking a toll on me, even when i got a new set of bed sheet after 5 years i felt so guilty coz at tht same time they were asking me for 500 to buy an aircond n i couldnt give it. Everything i buy for myself i feel guilty n i only spend on myself once in a while when i really need to.
Today i just broke down and started yelling at my mom n said tht i cant spend tht kind of money for rennovations n tht i need to save too n its stupid tht just because im single i need to chip in. Everthing is n ’emergency’.
Sometimes i just wish my dad isnt here anymore. At least she can sell tht stupid house with all the bad memories i had in it n have some money set aside for real emergencies.
I hate it tht it went from asking to telling. Now its gone to ‘oh im planning to change the toilet flooring, and the contractor said its 3000, so im putting half of tht and u can pay the rest. The toilet really needs a make over, its about time’.
Hi guys I need advice urgently:
I have a sister who is married. She has 4 kids and one day called she desperately called me asking me for financial help to pay her college. I told her that I would pay her semesters if she were able to take the most advantage she could of school. I did pay, but thought the semester she has not been honest. Sometimes she has not taken proper care of her kids, it looks like she is hanging out with another man, her husband is depressed because she wants to leave him, she has shown up to class drunk, sometimes she got excuses to arrive late to school. She always ask for money to my mother, who is just paying her retirement, my mother is 50 and she works as housekeeper. My sister is 29 and she has not demonstrated responsibility nor has she demonstrated a sense of value toward what I, with a lot of effort, give to her. I just told her that I would not help her to pay school. I have also to pay my school, and I have a lot of personal expenses to cover. I was making sacrifices to help my sister, but her behavior makes me understand that she is not really valuing what I do. I am a 26 years old man that has come as an international student, and I pay everything thanks to my work.
I would have a heart to heart with your brother. Say you want to help him, but you are afraid that nothing will change.
Ask him what is HE DOING to change/improve his situation?
If you decide to help him, maybe help him with something like his electricity and water bill, etc., a car payment for a specified amount of time that is agreed upon, but I would not give ONE LUMP SUM of money to him!
That way, he knows the money won’t flow endlessly from you just to be in the same situation!
If they are TRULY overspending on frivolous things, I wouldn’t lend him a dime!
I understand not lending a helping hand to someone who is careless in life’s pursuits, but here’s one for you. Now in my youth, over 30 years ago, I was carefree and lived as life came, without cares. No doubt I was financially irresponsible in my pursuit of whatever I happened to find fun at the moment, but with marriage, then kids, all of that changed.
I became a diligent family man. A hard worker….I was a timber cutter…who risked his life daily in pursuit of bread for the table and clothes on the back. I made good money. An uneducated guy making $750 a week 30 years ago….I though I was rolling, but then came upheaval.
I was struck in the head by a limb and out of work for 2 months, which was covered by workers comp and the company for which I worked. Anyone with any sense, knowledge to do anything else, would have found another line of work, but believe it or not, as dangerous and physical as the job was, I LOVED IT!, so I returned. Would even go do it again if able, at 52 years of age.
Fast forward 2 years. I hurt my back and was no longer able to do what I loved and had to start seeking other jobs that I could do. None paid near as well as logging, but I was determined that I was not going on disability. The only jobs that I was qualified for were manual labor jobs, so I would take one and work until I couldn’t, which would be when my back would go out, and usually after a couple of times of having to miss a couple weeks of work the owner, and I understood, would say something like, “this just isn’t working out. Puts us in a bind because we depend on your labor, and then you have to be out for an extended period”.
I even went into business for myself. All my customers lived me, my work, but even though I managed to managed to make a go of it for a couple of years, 2008 happened and at the same time my back got worse, so I had to sell the company….wasn’t very valuable either.
So I would then work for a few months, or however long my back would let me, then when it would go out I would just call and quit then find another job when able. The company I had owned had changed hands again, and I ran into the owner one day, told him my circumstances, and a well later he hired me. Knowingly circumstances at the beginning, and knowing all there was about his business, put me in a very good position for a while. But then both knees went out in about a 2 year span. When the second one blew my wife I had, having already discussed the possibility of me finally having to go on SSDI, decided since I was gonna be out for an extended period that I should go ahead and apply for SSDI…the wait is about 2 years. So I did. One year in Workers Comp dried up and things started getting rough.
Oh forgot to mention that at some point after 2008 we had to sell our home to keep from being foreclosed on. Back to waiting on SSDI. We downsized our lives…BIG TIME…but even still our mortgage was threatened with foreclosure more than once….it was common knowledge among my mom, dad, and siblings. My dad and mom being old, and on a fixed income, I wouldn’t even consider asking then, but I have an older sister, who while not what I would consider wealthy, I do consider rich because they have over a 3,000 sq ft home on 40 acres on the river, with 3 tiny cottage bed and breakfast units she rents out and they’re always booked, so yes she’s rolling in dough. So I kept thinking that at any moment my sis is gonna call and offer to help us out….just a little.
Now to me that is just greedy!
I see being there for a parent, or mentally ill, or mentally challenged siblin….or helping a sibilin through a medical problem that sets them back. I do not think a sibilin should be responsible for another sister/brother’s life choices that put them in a compromising postion financially. They made the choice to spend all them money and not save, or to apply their money to a future when they would not be able to work due to age or health. Some people would call it heartless to not step in and help….I call it enabling, just like giving money to a drug addicted person. The siblin is a person addicted to a certain lifestyle and won’t face facts. Just because one person is smarter and makes better choices, THEY should have to pay for the person who does not make better choices when they ARE able. We are facing this problem. I have a brother in law who wants to keep his same life style, while doing NOTHING to improve his situation by cutting back, selling the house, selling 3 of his 5 cars, stop cable, stop the summer pool membership, not go on vacations…basically get his financial situation in order. We paid 3 months of his mortgage, to get him to the Spring and Summer market and so the kids would not be bothered by the selling of the house….”the kids!”….”my wife might leave me!” (he did not want her to know how close they were to losing the house). My husband and I drive a 6 and 10 year old car. Our children were in 12 and 13 year old cars. He asked us to give him $6000.00 a month!! And we just went on a fixed income! My husband and talked about it. We had bailed his parents out twice before. We had been down this road once. We decided to pay the mortgage DIRECTLY for 3 months…$3000 a month to get them to the selling season. While we did this, my brother in law stopped communicating with us…nothing. We did not hear if they were OK, moving, got a job….silence. I tried to communicate with my sister in law….nothing for months. We found out in the Fall they had hit up everyone they could, for money….instead of getting their life rearranged. So be it. A child’s birthday was coming up…I heard from my SIL a week before…then nothing. I informed them around Thanksgiving we would be out of town…no invite to my adult children to their Thanksgiving. Then we heard my BIL called his sister crying, needing money. She and her husband gave my BIL and SIL $3000. The bonus my other BIL EARNED. Then my husband’s sister called him complaining and berating herself for caving in and giving her brother more money to keep him in a lifestyle he could not longer keep. She ENABLED her addicted brother for another month. They have finally tapped out everyone, and the anger they have towards us is obvious….just like a addict that has their source cut off. You might think I am being harsh…but know this, they have about $200,000.00 in equity, they could sell their house, get into a small or equal size house in another part of town, and be fine. Our other offer to them was a FREE 4 bedroom, 4 bath, two kitchen house to live in, (we own and housed our own children in while they attended college) they pay the utilities, we pay the taxes….and they refused our offer. Said it wasn’t good enough. It was good enough for our own kids. I finally came out and said….they have not hit rock bottom yet….so I am done and I think my husband is done, too. My word for their behavior is ‘entitled’ and ‘brat’ behavior…a bit of selfish too after asking a 92 year old Aunt to support their need to keep everything the same and to hell with other peoples situation. My BIL is doing with his father did….feed his addiction.
Hi,
The below is big and real story,
I have a brother who is married have 2 kids, Initially after his marriage he was in bad financial stage which effected him and was unable able to speak for more than a month, Now he speaks but its sluttering, After this incident i as his younger brother was felt so pain inside me During this i just started to work with salary of 8k So it was difficlut to help my bother to come out of this financial crisis but my brother took some loans and mother jewelries and his wife jewelries to pay back his loan, the one more major problem is this financial crisis started a quarrel between my bother and his wife, I and my mother felt so pain during these days, so later after an year i and my mother came out of my brother rented home and shifted to his neighboring building. Later when my brother and his wife quarreled they used to call me to tell complaints about each other, i didn’t had the privilege to say wrong to my sister in law so i used to scold my brother to have patience and used to tell him don’t ever raise hands on his wife, Again after year my brother again was in trouble to repaying his loans so at his time i changed my job with salary , during this i repaid his loan thinking this can solve his problems, But it was a never ending story, again he lost his job again i helped him financially and in again to add up is the mediation in there quarreling issues, this went on and on for 8 years, Now i married since 8 months i supporting my brother since 8 months to repay his credit card emi’s and helped him to start a business even though business his giving him bread and butter but thats not helping him to repay his loans, I being married now i dont want to help by brother but that emotional attachment will make me to help him, lots of my relatives say to get far away from ur brother else he won’t let u to remain in piece. I wonder how my life is full of sarrows because of my elder brother. Now my intention is to get far away from my brother and lead my own life.
My issue is I am the poor one and my rich sister nickle and dimes me! When I got divorced she said she would make sure my kids got first pick of her kids hand me downs. So before you worry about trying to financially help family members try being emotionally there for them first. Maybe they don’t want your dough maybe they want your love! And if you are cheap, keep your cheap to yourself and don’t take advantage of your own family like my sister does.