Signs of Financial Relationship Trouble?
With my husband across the planet in Kuwait for most of the past two years, we don’t fight a lot.
When we do fight, it’s about three things: what I’m doing with the kids. What things are going to be like when he comes back (for leave, or for good). And money.
We started out so well?
At the beginning of our relationship, I had a great job I was leaving, along with my ex-boyfriend, to move back home to Portland and my to-be-husband. It was easy to find a new job (this was 2001), and we settled quickly into the financial structure that existed then. I made most of the family’s money and paid all the bills. My husband and I, honestly, were thinking ahead only in general terms. “I want to save money for retirement,” we would say. “Let’s have college savings funds for the boys,” we’d say.
We merged finances very soon in our young marriage; while I bought the house and had entered into the credit cards before we married, we shared equally in the choices about how to spend our money and control over the debit card. Most of our arguments about money were retroactive. (“Why did you buy drinks for your friends, again?” I might say. “How much did you spend on fabric?” he might say in return.)
Conventional roles work?
When I ended my relationship with full-time work for a salary in late 2008, my husband was supportive. At first, I was making quite a lot in my freelance job and he could make enough at the service-oriented jobs he was working at the time to balance the books. Eventually, we decided he should take advantage of a need for his talents and skills in the Army; it would provide plenty of income and benefits while we regained our financial footing. When he returned, he’d be more employable. He’d have a promotion or two, and those medals and honors do add up to respect in many lines of work.
Since we made that decision, but for one glorious month when I had a couple of great freelance jobs come together, he’s made the majority of the income. He seemed excited about that, at first; his chance to “provide for his family!” He said things like, “it’s my turn,” and “I’m proud I have the opportunity.” We kept our finances combined; the paycheck came into a joint USAA account, and I paid the bills, like always. It was easier; I had the bills coming into my mailbox, and I was the one with most of the expenses outside of bills, as the day-to-day costs of being a soldier overseas can be limited to phone cards, internet cards, cigarettes, and soda. (Well, they could be limited to almost nothing, but some allowances must be made for the difficult environment.)
That was great, until he came home for a few months and discovered I’d saved little money for an emergency fund. I thought he understood that we were paying off a lot of debt and I wouldn’t be saving money until it was closer to a zero balance. We couldn’t come to a good understanding, here; I thought I’d done a pretty good job of managing the money, he thought I’d spent too much on food. “Maybe I have spent a lot on food, but you spend way more!” I said, watching him load up on convenience foods that were “easier” than my organic, from-scratch options.
Perception is reality?
Fundamentally, we just have a very different approach to food; mine has changed as I’ve become more educated about agricultural techniques and the impact of chemicals on the body. I’ve also seen my health improve as I nearly eliminated refined sugar and many processed foods, including conventionally-farmed meats, and seen how severely my children’s behavior can react to a great deal of chemicals and refined sugars in their diet. Not only does it seem worth it (especially as the primary caregiver) to me to spend a little more per pound for some of the things I buy, I really believe that my food schema is less expensive in total than his. It’s certainly less expensive than our two competing food schemas, combined.
While he agrees in principle with most of my ideas about diet, he is impatient about waiting a long time for a meal (especially after coming home from a place where meals are served at exactly the same time each day) and seduced by the super saver deals on meat and prepared foods at Safeway. With both of us buying food, we waste a lot, making our total expense outrageous — plus we’re spending way too much time either arguing over our spending or feeling resentful and angry over the other spouse’s spending. I know enough to know that “perception is reality,” at least in this sort of dispute. It doesn’t matter whether my food budget is $600 a month or $1200 a month. It mattered that I spent $45 on a box of organic nectarines. (Once! They’re super good and I plan to buy that same box again this summer.)
A fix?
He came up with a plan to stop the fighting: he would start a separate account, get paid into that account, and he would pay all the bills, then put money in savings, and give me money for food, babysitting, and other household expenses if I needed it; after lots of argument I had said I would pay for food out of my freelance income.
While this worked in some ways; he was so proud he was paying the bills and saving money, and he thought he’d solved all our problems; it didn’t work for me. Now if I didn’t make enough to cover the month’s expenses on the homefront I’d have to go ask him for money. If I was late sending him a bill I’d feel bad and want to pay it myself. Sometimes our communication was mixed up, causing late fees or overdrafts. The bank treats accounts that are getting direct deposit from the government very differently than those that are receiving direct deposits from private companies, so I was paying more fees for ATM withdrawals, among other things.
The worst part was — I thought — it set up a weird dynamic between us. When I came to him to ask for money, it gave him a lot of power to say “no” if he thought my use wasn’t a good one. Because we don’t talk every day, I would have to save up my money talk for when we did get a phone call, leading him to say (when he was feeling dramatic) that I only ever wanted to talk to him about money. The problem escalated as the months went on, until we came to a kind of agreement about a budget he’d give me, and not ask how I was using it.
A better solution?
It’s still not perfect. He thinks I don’t need as much money as he sends me, no matter that I beg him to ask his friends how much their wives spend on food, babysitting, transportation, clothes… (which is kind of cheating, as I spend virtually nothing on transportation and clothes); I think his structure is only going to continue to cause this unease between us. I can’t deny that it’s nice to have him paying the major household bills. And it’s certainly my goal to make enough to pay for all the groceries and babysitting my little heart could desire; I do, some months, and those are so much easier between us.
Separate accounts can work
I really do believe that separate accounts can work; but only if either:
- Both partners are making enough to meet their individual needs and one is making enough to save after the bills are paid; or
- Both partners are almost perfectly aligned in their spending values.
I’m hoping I can manage to make #1 happen, because I’m fairly sure #2 is too far in the distant future to count on. How about you: Have you made a joint account work? Do you fit one of these two categories or do you have another one I should add to my list? If you’ve had separate accounts and it hasn’t worked out, did you find a way to solve the problem?
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There are 179 comments to "Signs of Financial Relationship Trouble?".
For us, a joint account works. We spent some time early in our marriage drawing up a rough budget, and this budget included a certain sum that we jointly decided we could afford to divert into savings/emergency fund every month. At the beginning of each month, I make that transfer from the joint checking account to savings (an account we both regard as untouchable without some kind of major mutual decision). We also have mutually-agreed-upon amounts that we put towards debt repayment, aid to indigent family members, etc.
Since we do what we initially agreed upon regarding savings,debt, and giving… my husband– who, while not overseas, is at the office long hours on weekdays, leaving me with most of the purchasing decisions– feels comfortable with my handling the spending and bills out of the everyday-living money in the checking account. It helps that I track it carefully and don’t make serious errors, or run out of money before the end of the month! But, basically, I think a couple needs to sit down and hash out those big goals together– savings, debt, etc.– follow through on their agreement– and then be able to trust each other on how the remaining funds get spent. In your case, you are running the household pretty much single-handedly, and I honestly feel that requires full access to the funds. If your husband felt confident that the emergency fund was growing according to a joint plan, do you think he’d relinquish some control?
Your food argument rings many bells with me. I too am more likely to spend extra for high-quality groceries, and argue that it really costs less than prepared, or less than getting takeout all the time “like you used to, honey,” or less than future health care costs from being malnourished, etc…. hope you enjoy your organic nectarines. 🙂
Eve, I love to hear that you and your husband have a plan…that works well. I cover finances between couples in chapter 16 of my book, How We Prevent Wealth: A Personal Finance Reflection.
The truth of the matter is that there is no one right way to handle joint finances. However, all joint finance situations require a mutual understanding and agreement on how money will be spent.
I really agree about goal-setting – Sarah, that seems to be the missing piece for you. If you were both working towards mutually agreed-upon goals I think it would increase trust and decrease tension.
The problem seems to be FINDING mutual goals. They have very different priorities for money, especially when it comes to food, and it sounds like they’ve had a hard time coming up with goals they agree upon. I don’t have any solutions but have lots of empathy!
Yeah, it’s totally the part of finding unified goals that’s the sticky part, huh. I agree that it sounds like there are some more fundamental conversations to be had here but I would have faith that there are common goals in there somewhere. It seems like there’s a lot more in here about power imbalances and trust than it really is about the food budget. Sarah probably feels that her husband isn’t showing enough trust in her decision-making, while her husband probably feels a bit of fear from being so far away from his family often and a lack of control over what’s going on.
For my husband and me, everything got a lot easier once we came to the agreement that in order to satisfy his concerns about having enough savings, we would deposit an agreed upon amount *first* into our savings fund every month out of our paychecks before allocating out the rest into budgets for different categories. Once he felt safe about how much we were putting away, as long as we had a positive cash flow, he hasn’t really cared all that much about how we (mostly I) spend the rest, though we actually do have the same arguments about the benefit of organic groceries vs. using SPAM etc.
Best of luck, Sarah.
I’ve been married for 24 years. We have always had joint accounts. They dynamics have changed several times over those years. I made more, then he made more. We went through unemployment, rediculous amounts of medical bills, and the recession. Our “system” evolves as our circumstances evolve. However, what seems to work best is 1)tracking our budget (the tighter the money the more detailed the tracking becomes), which keeps us accountable to each other and the financial commitments we’ve made together and 2) we each get a weekly allowance that we do not have to be accountable to each other. The allowance is very small, is the same amount for each of us, and variable on the income that is coming in. It frees us up from that feeling of needing permission or that the other person is trying to control.
I thank your family for your service to this country and I hope that when he comes back it will be easier to sit down and negotiate your finances.
This is a very good point– we do this too (the small personal allowance). It is only $40/week apiece, but makes it so we don’t have to check in with one another or feel guilty if we want to buy an ice cream cone or a coffee. As long as this nickel-and-dime spending stays within a reasonable agreed-upon range (the allowance), we do not ask questions. 🙂
I have been married for 29 years. We have always had joined finances, when I worked 2 jobs to support us and pay for his graduate school, and later when I left the workforce to raise our children. We also set aside ‘mad money’ that was availble for discretionary spending. This has worked very well for us.
We just celebrated our 30th wedding anniversary last week and have had joint accounts for all of that time. However, the majority of the money management is done by one person…me. He doesn’t use a debit card so I don’t have to worry about unexpected withdrawals. HOWEVER, we both sit down and discuss the budget allocations when there is a need to make changes to them. We have used the envelope system for 24 years now, and both of us have access to those envelopes to buy food, clothing, and items for the home. We each also get an “allowance” to spend how we want and to provide gas for our vehicles. I get $20 more in “allowance” every 2 weeks because I drive farther to work than he does. The amount allotted for gas takes about 1/3-1/2 of our allowances.
We use an allowance system too for day to day spending, $500 per half the month, this covers gas, groceries, eating out, entertainment, dry cleaning, dog expenses, personal care, etc.
We have our own accounts for our allowance money, if you are good with your allowance you can save the money up for treats.
Mr. Sam would spend as much money as was available to him (although I’m the spender in the relationship, I have more discipline) so we decided when we were paying down our debt to cut up the credit cards, use debit cards only and live by an allowance.
While it is stressful his making you a beggar and shorting his children is not, IMHO, the way to go. Maybe the expectations are too high?
The issue seems to be primarily food as explained, but in our house it was “household” and “for the kids” goods. I simply had no clue how much it took to feed, clothe, and supply stuff for us and the kids plus keep the household rolling. My experience was mostly from when I lived alone in a small apartment. So I bit my tongue more often than not and resented what I viewed as excess spending. Deciding I needed to become informed I then made it a point to go shopping with my wife on multiple occasions and watched her making choices and while I may not have been in agreement with every one of them, I saw she wasn’t just throwing money away either. That helped for me to understand at least why she was making the choices she was making.
We’ve finally come up with upper limits in a couple of broad categories. For example, W for kids/school events, X for grocery and household, Y for gas and minor car issues, Z for entertainment. We (though it’s mostly her) are both welcome to move money from one area to cover excess in the others as long as at the end of the month we don’t exceed the total for the group. That has eased my mind (total budget covered) and eased her’s (she can see ahead when she needs to beef up for kids for school or events). It isn’t perfect, but the outliers can usually be discussed and dealt with beforehand rather than after the fact, so it has helped.
Just keep in mind, it keeps changing. The above system worked for some years, but is now adapting to kids in college, and “discussions” on where their earned money needs to go. So the process doesn’t “end”, and I think a lot of folks have difficulty understanding that you need to adjust things as times change.
I moved to my husband’s country when I got married, but we did not and still do not have joint accounts. We agreed to meticulously track our household spending for the first three months. We then came up with an amount of how much we each needed to contribute towards the running of the house. We used the envelope system and tried as much as possible not run out before the month end. Clothes and other personal things, eg alcohol for my husband, were paid from our own separate money. This has worked well and we just adjust when we need to – for example if we are hosting a get together then we calculate how much we need and contribute equally.
Having to ask for money from your husband must be tough, but I am glad that you now have a more workable solution.
Yeah, what solved most of our money arguments was that I went back to work full time and put all the shopping on him for a while. Amazingly, when a person has to do all that shopping and planning and at least half the cooking and cleaning, it becomes a more important priority. Also his unmeetable expectations (no more than $5 for jeans!) fell on him instead of me, which made him change them.
Now i’m not working again and he just doesn’t argue about the groceries or basic kid stuff. We discuss big stuff (summer camp, vacations, entertaining costs) but he doesn’t usually argue with me about the part that is my responsibility – he certainly doesn’t want it to be his problem again.
(I have *never* complained about his expenditures, he’s way more frugal than me. Whatever, buy a kayak, I don’t care. But that $$ has to come out of savings, not groceries.)
You both REALLY need to get on the same page.
Most importantly you need a budget you both agree to.
It sounds like his plan was to take the power into his hands and keep the author dependent on his fancy.
I’m all for separate finances, especially if there’s no kids. In this situation, it doesn’t seem to be working well.
If nothing else, the system is causing stress. That’s no good.
It sounds to me (just by the article) that the financial disagreements here might partly be because of the long-distance with her husband on deployment.
It’s hard to stay on the same page when you can’t sit down every week or two and go over the budget & expesnses together.
Oh gee, that all sounds difficult. I totally agree with you on food, and I’m thinking some of the differences are that he hasn’t changed enough diapers to see (and *smell*) precisely the impact that good food vs. processed food has on outputs in small children. That was really eye-opening (nose-opening?) for us.
We have a joint account, but my husband is really easy going. Over the years his eating habits have changed along with mine (mainly back when we were trying to get pregnant the first time and found out I had PCOS which started us on eating healthier and more whole grains– he could eat junk food but he had to keep it at work away from me).
For a long time he didn’t worry his pretty head over finances, and I just took care of everything, but after reading YMoYL and seeing what having a lot of savings could do for his freedom, he started getting interested. However, that hasn’t caused any conflict. He’s got an adult allowance for his own wants, but with needs we’re pretty much on the same page.
I guess my only advice would be the same as all conflict resolution advice. Use “I” and “we” statements instead of “You” statements. Trust that you love each other. Remind each other that you love and trust each other. Look at conflicts as problems needing solutions (this is a benefit to having married an engineer), not a personal statement about each other’s worth or values or love. Try things out temporarily. Never roll your eyes or think of your spouse with contempt.
Also, he might enjoy the cookbook, “Faster! I’m starving!” It makes fast healthy yummy meals from a standard pantry for a family of 4-5, and might be even better for his needs and wants than some of the processed food he buys. We had fun going through the entire book, one recipe a day (alternating sections each day), and then writing up what we thought about each in the book.
I strongly believe in joint bank accounts for married couples. I think it’s important to consider all income to be “our” income, and all expenses to be “our” expenses. You’re not blowing wads of cash on expensive, frou-frou foods for YOU, you’re doing it for YOUR FAMILY.
In our household, all paychecks go into one account, and all bills are paid out of that same account. We also do the $x/month “allowance” money so we can each have some money to spend on personal indulgences without any judgement from the other partner.
It sounds like Sarah and her husband have the same issues as every married couple, exacerbated by military service. The key is to communicate and be open and honest with each other. If he really loves you, he should WANT you to be happy, even if he personally doesn’t agree with the kind of food you eat. The fact that YOU like that food should be enough for him to happily go along with it.
I agree w/ the discretionary “allowance” model. But they need to come to an agreement on a basic, bare-bones, “what the family actually needs” food budget. That way, her husband can get all the junk food he wants using his allowance, and she can buy her $45 nectarines with hers.
except food for the kids then comes out of her allowance. How is that fair?
It’s not the joint or separate accounts thing – we have separate accounts even though I’m not working, my spending money just comes out of the joint account into mine instead of it being a share of my paycheck. It’s the not working out a shared-priorities budget and insisting on one person having all the power.
I guess I wasn’t very clear in my first reply… Food for the kids comes out of the basic family food budget – which both mom & dad must agree on. Specialty foods, or junk foods comes out of mom & dad’s personal allowances. If I get my kids Wendy’s frosty’s that is a special treat that comes out of my allowance, not the family food budget. (I hope that makes sense…)
The bigger issue with the writer and her spouse is that they cannot agree on what constitutes the basics.
He shouldn’t just go along with whatever makes her happy if they don’t have the money for it – and that’s the disagreement – he’s not interested in risking his life and missing his boys childhood so she can snack on organic nectarines.
If she were honest with herself that a lot of the the “I need better food” is just consumerism of the ‘approved’ kind. I mean would she even be making the argument if the item were chocolates?
Oh wait I forgot this is Sarah Gilbert – rather than avoid chocolate because the industry is rife with slavery – she chooses the most expensive way to make my point and buy the specialty slave free chocolates because it’s her cause of the month.
Tyler – you were right – it’s the how to be comfortable (and remarkably self rightous)with being poor show, all over again.
wow! that was pretty direct. Bella, you don’t seem to much like me or my choices. would you do me the favor of skipping over my posts? I don’t think we’re going to agree and your snarky responses, honestly, hurt my feelings.
I like your posts even more now that I’ve seen your reply to this comment. Thanks for the measured, honest and absolutely appropriate response. (FWIW, I’m a discount shopper, not an organic one)
Bella’s post is a thinly-disguised troll post if I’ve ever seen one. Don’t let her bad attitude and callous disrespect for your life choices hurt you. She’s a complete stranger- its not worth the emotional energy.
Love me or hate me, as long as you’re talking about me. Isn’t that the idea for those in the public eye?
Asking readers to avoid your posts when they don’t like the content is not the answer you need for a site that makes it’s revenue from page clicks.
As far as your dilemma though, have you and your husband discussed how much money he is expecting to have saved up realistically vs the debts? Is it possible to come to an agreed upon number and put it into a savings account after bills are paid but before organic nectarines are purchased? I realize you’ve only bought them once, but I use them as an example of a splurge. You know they are as well as we do. Maybe if you’re going to have a nectarine, it “has” to be organic…but you don’t need to have a nectarine before bills are paid, or before the savings goal is met.
Your relationship is worth more than your dietary preferences. Yes, preferences. Don’t be one of the 50% of marriages that end over money.
To all those hating on organic food – not really the financial issue – my hubby was once with you.
Today we are members of two CSA’s – one for organic veggies and one for local, humane, (almost organic) meat.
Doing the math at about $27/week for two large paper bags full of veggies – it’s both cheaper than most conventional produce at the supermarket and WAY tastier.
As for the meat, it’s $8/lb (@ 2.5 lb/week this is $20). But we just don’t eat meat that isn’t raised to certain standards. This means beans. Lots of beans. And for pork or beef it’s hard to find in the stores (even the grass-fed ground beef s $6.50)
So for $48/week I have all of my meat and veg taken care of. That leaves milk, eggs, grain/starch, fruit, and treats (frozen pizza, popsicles, chocolate, etc.) It also helps our budgeting – I shop the sales at the grocery so that can fluctuate vastly between weeks, but we know what the CSAs will run.
My wife and I have made a joint account work, but I think that is really because “[b]oth partners are almost perfectly aligned in their spending values.” We are usually in agreement with each other about most expenses. We talk a lot and that helps; I’m sure the separation and unavoidable decrease in communication that goes with it does make it feel like all you ever do is argue about expenses.
We budget about $100 a month ($50 each) for personal spending with no judging allowed. She may not like that I eat fast food every once in a while, but that’s why it comes out of Tom money.
We also split out and keep tabs on any extra income (tax returns, gifts, bonuses, whatever). For example, our budget is based off of two bi-weekly paychecks a month, so twice a year there’s a third check split evenly between us that we can use at our discretion
Having spent time a continent away, paying bills and trying to stay connected with family, we had a few bumps.
You need to agree on specific goals. You both also need to accept what each of you controls. When I was away I felt disconnected and we argued about what I knew about, because it was a way to feel connected.
As for the food, I recommend two cookbooks that can help, Whole Foods for the Whole Family and The More With Less Cookbook. They both are good cookbooks with a frugal approach for fixing and eating real food.
If you can figure out a way to keep connected by other than the money issues, they may fade a little.
Hi Sarah, I’m a stay-at-home mom and my husband is deployed to Afghanistan right now. We have completely joint finances. I pay the bills and move money into savings. I try not to second-guess his spending (but a $400 knife? Really?), and he trusts me to make good financial decisions. I’m usually the more frugal one anyways.
For you, a couple questions/tips: 1. What do you mean by you “send him the bills”? I would guess that most bills could be set up with auto-deduct or online payment. So why would he need to wait for you to send them? If only one or two bills require a check, then you could write those checks and prevent late fees.
2. Are you saying you have NO access to his account? Considering your variable income, it seems like you should have some kind of access for real emergencies. I hope you have a financial power of attorney at least!
3. Are you paying for this month’s groceries/babysitting with this month’s freelance income? If so, I think it could save you a lot of heartache by getting ahead one month and paying for this month’s expenses with last month’s income. That way you know on August 1, “Ok, I made $500 last month and that’s what I have to spend.” Or if you only made $300 in July, you already know on August 1 that you will be short and you only have to ask for extra money once, at the beginning of the month.
4. On the months when you have extra freelance income, where does that extra money go? If you’re putting that extra toward debt payment, then that’s not really fair! Paying down debt one month and then having to ask pretty-please for grocery money the next. Yikes! I’d recommend that any extra income stay in your allowance account. Then on months you fall short you can draw on that (and you don’t have to ask hubby for more money). However, if you rarely make enough to cover groceries/babysitting, then you really have to rethink your whole system.
Deployments are stressful for the soldier and the spouse. I spend a lot on groceries too, so I feel you on that. I hope you two can find a system that works! I will say that when my husband and I got out to debt we argued about finances a lot less. Good luck!
There is clearly no “meeting of the minds” here in terms of the monthly budget. The LW’s husband does not agree with the wife’s spending plan. That is what needs to be reconciled. (He does not appear to be showing much respect for her daily struggle as a single mom while he’s away).
Personally, I cannot imagine a dynamic where I had to “ask” my partner for money. It’s paternatlistic and unrealistic. This should be a partnership where both parties can agree on finances. If, after all this time, you cannot agree on how the monthly budget should be spent, then I think some kind of counseling or mediation may be the answer.
Married for 9 years, joint accounts for that amount of time as well.
For the most part, my husband leaves the money situation to me. But that’s because he knows I’m extremely debt averse and will not ruin us financially. When we first were married we had the retro active conversations about why the other spent x on y – they rarely helped. What did help was sitting down with each other and the list of bills & savings goals and having a rational discussion about what we could do if we limited our spending in different places.
Now, being separated by oceans is VERY difficult on a marriage. We spent our 2nd year and our 6th year separated. The 2nd year was the hardest because our communication was sporadic and limited to just 20 min (unless my husband could find the top secret ‘no limit’ phones). The 6th year was SO MUCH better – not just because it was the second time he was away and things were becoming ‘old hat’ for us – but because we discovered Skype and made a set appointment to talk to each other. That improved communications and while the first deployment almost had us heading for divorce lawyers, the second deployment sealed our commitment to each other and sent us down the road towards children.
I don’t know if that’s possible for you, but it’s clear that you’ll need to learn how to communicate when he’s back. Please consider some counseling at your nearest Vet Center. They have Marital and Family counselors / Social Workers who can help you both. If they can’t help, they may know someone who can.
It’s my understanding that Tricare will pay for counseling with a civilian psychologist or marriage counselor as well. Which is nice if the Soldier would feel more comfortable going somewhere off post/base.
When my girlfriend and I get married we will be merging finances. However we are already on the same page with where our money goes. It sounds like you guys need to develop a budget you can both agree with and stick to it. I know my girlfriend and I wont agree on everything but we plan on having personal spending allowance to deal with that.
My fiancee and I merged finances about a year ago when we moved in together. We’ve always found it strange that people are willing to get married (and commit yourself to another person for life) BEFORE merging finances with them. Marriage seems like the bigger step: why do it first?
We have a similar mentality regarding money, so it worked well for us. We also know married couples that never merged finances, which can definitely work for some people. One way we keep from arguing about money is having individual discretionary income (not very much, but enough) in addition to the joint discretionary income. There are some things we each value more than the other, and this gives us a chance to spend our money accordingly.
You marry first because of the legal protections given to spouses in the case of divorce. I would not feel comfortable making career/financial sacrifices for the sake of a relationship without those protections.
I realize many marriages end. I refuse to go into it expecting it will happen. I’m usually very logical, but some things should be handled by the heart. If you’ve honestly tested your compatibility first, and everything is on the table, holding things back from your partner just doesn’t feel right.
The book All Your Worth (which is mentioned on this site often) has a section on finances and how they affect your relationship. If you haven’t read it, it’s really worth it to help figure out what could work for you guys.
I hear no gracefulness in your post- only bitterness of being stuck. He seems to be reacting by pulling in the purse strings tighter, causing more bitterness. It is a death spiral that I have seen hundreds of times in military families. Be careful. Try to start with a reasonable budget so both people’s dreams are being fulfilled. He doesn’t want to be doing this just to end up in the same place and you do not want to spend money just to get even with him.
You can get free babysitting on post. Believe me, when he is stuck in a sh** hole, he does not want to hear you lament that you could not afford to go out with your friends or buy $45 nectarines . His enlistment is probably pretty well up…you’d better start looking for compromise.
Skype more often. Forget talking about money. Let him know he means more than a paycheck. Easier said then done, but you are smart…do it!
I like this comment in general, but Sarah’s husband is in Kuwait, not in Somalia. And he’s a voluntary enlister with special skills, not a grunt.
So while $45 for a box of nectarines (and we don’t know how big a box that is) may seem excessive, we shouldn’t fixate on that as denoting some life of luxury that Sarah is supposedly leading while he suffers in a sand cave.
@@ I lived in Saudi. I know where Kuwait is. Most soldiers feel that anywhere without their family, in a limited area with a harsh climate, is a sh** hole- my family included- an Airman, a Marine and an Army soldier.
ALL enlisted are specialized- as are officers. I see no “grunts”. If you do- then you have not looked at the modern volunteer military.
The drawdown is real and happening as the war continues. Even if he could re enlist (He joined in 08 making a five year enlistment up next year)- the special money he gets for being overseas will soon dry up. The government is in the process of gutting the military- that is the reality.
If she struggles on a budget that is untaxed and padded for being in a deployed status, then it will be much less fun when that money no longer exists.
Still waiting for the first Sarah Gilbert post where she doesn’t mention her organic, grass-fed, holistic food fetish.
More on topic…been married 3 years and all of our finances are joint/merged (except for Individual retirement accounts, but we are primary beneficiaries on each other’s). I “pay the bills” but both of our paychecks are direct deposited to the same account. Neither of us has any debt except the mortgage. We decided jointly that we would split our surplus cash flow each month between investments, paying down mortgage, and long-term savings (vacations, car, etc.)
No real fights about money, but to be honest we are making a lot so that has a lot to do with it.
Have you tried the balanced money approach in Elizabeth Warren’s book? It might help ease things along between you &your dh, if you can keep your finances aligned within guidelines. It might help you both avoid fighting over details.
My husband is as frugal as I, and we had joint accounts from the start. This has worked extremely well for us, possibly because he doesn’t like being bothered with the details.
We are on the same page with big picture things: major purchases, funding retirement, education, paying down debt. I take care of the details.
The one area we fight over is an irregular expense of his. We resolved the conflict by opening an account in his name to which we make automatic monthly deposits. Then he can take the money out when he wants it without asking me, and my financial plans are not disrupted by unanticipated expenditures.
Good luck.
Everyone’s different but there is one constant for a successful relationship….equality. 50/50 regardless of where the money comes from and how much from whom. The hard part isn’t figuring out where the money went or how it should be spent. The hard part is figuring out what sacrifice is required in how it will be made and for what goals it will be ultimately saved. In your case, it is made the hard way. Separation, single parenting, and one accountable income. But, you’re on the same team and need to figure out a common goal and, perhaps, individual goals that the relationship would benefit from. The common goal and daily survival is where that joint account comes in. Individual accounts are for your own freedoms and fancies. 50-30-20 comes into play as the baseline?
I have no idea what a freelance writer can bring in, but it sounds inconsistent. Why not live on just your husband’s consistent income and save every penny of yours to beef up that ER fund that he desires? And the food thing is important to you…he will just have to “eat it” and respect it. As far as the bill paying and the arrangement for him to have control across the planet….that’s the part that screamed trouble to me.
When we married, I was a generalist (I knew generally how much money I had in the bank, generally how much I charged each month, and paid everything off every month but just eyeballed my account) and my husband was a to-the-penny balancer. To keep marital stress light, we kept separate accounts but had both names on all accounts so I knew what he had and vice versa. We separated bills and it went from there.
Now we are both closer to generalists but it works for us and so we stuck with it. I am now part-time so I can stay home with the kids more, and it still galls me to “ask” for money so I feel for you, even though my husband and I are on more of a same page about where our money goes.
I’m a little concerned he doesn’t see “paying down debt” as “saving money.” If that debt costs more in interest than you make in interest….well, you know the rest.
Good luck.
I’m sorry for your communication problems with your husband, but I’m not sure that GRS is the place to work out these issues. This post gives me the feeling that this is oversharing in the worst way.
After reading this article it occurred to me that I was not really comfortable with the content. While I do appreciate the self disclosure of the writers on this blog about financial issues, the content of this article reflects more of the internal power struggles and communication issues in a marriage.
Agreed. This was really uncomfortable to read, and while I agree that the basic material could be a good choice for a financial blog, the approach took it in a completely different direction. It kind of felt more like a personal livejournal entry.
While I think I get where you’re coming from,I’m gonna have to respectfully disagree with this.
We have two competing values here.
One the one hand:
1) Talk of marital conflict can make people uncomfortable, we don’t argue in public, don’t wash your dirty laundry in public, etc.
On the other hand:
2) A good financial partnership is essential for couples who want to prosper and not self-destruct in the process. See for example:
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/07/money-fights-predict-divorce-rates/
3) A couple that fights together stays together. Sweeping issues under the rug doesn’t make anybody any good. See for example:
http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/relationship/138166289.html
—
So, in the name of the common good, the avoidance of divorces, and the art of prospering together as a family, I’d say let’s open up a little about the subject– without over-sharing or finger-pointing whenever possible.
Let’s avoid the Facebook effect of people only showing off how wonderful they are. The fact is, married people argue, a lot, especially about money, and if we can discuss the subject fairly and objectively, we have the potential to do some good for a lot of people.
Alright, I hope you find my arguments reasonable enough cuz I’m going to mention some of my own family struggles in my next comment.
Yes, some financial problems are really communication problems, and, as Suze Orman and Dave Ramsey emphasize, these may need to be fixed before real progress can be made in terms of budgeting etc. It’s an important part of personal finance with couples.
However, not all married people argue. It is true that many do, but some do not(and still have perfectly happy loving and respectful long-running relationships, even with children). It’s not all “Facebook effect.”
Not everybody who seems to be happily married without conflict is lying or omitting things. (Nor are they necessarily tiptoeing around each other or not communicating at all, nor is there no passion in their relationships, or any of the other things of which people accuse folks who don’t fight.)
El Nerdo and Nicole — I was about to say, “yes but” what Nicole said. While there are certainly arguments in my relationship about many things, money being a frequent one, I don’t agree with the old saw that “it’s healthy to argue.” I think there are some amazing couples who just don’t, and it seems to work for them. I have never ended up attached to men whose extremely functional families raised them beautifully and taught them to use perfectly logical arguments in their disagreements. If I could turn back the clock to my teens, I’d teach myself how to like the guys like that 🙂
That said, I think the manner in which you argue is extremely important — this is something I try to practice in my arguments with my children — and it’s certainly possible to have healthy arguments and one should attempt to do so in the case of disagreements.
I also agree wholeheartedly with the part about talking about this. J.D. was the one who decided to publish my post, so ultimately he’s the one who decides whether this fits on Get Rich Slowly, but I wrote it; I do think (not the relationship dissecting part but the ‘let’s talk about money arguments’ part) fits into a personal finance structure. I’m not going to say that my post is perfect but I think we SHOULD talk about how we talk about money.
I absolutely think that this post was relevant for GRS, and I was happy to find it. I am fascinated by how other couples handle accounts and discuss money in general, just as I’m interested in how other people invest, save, etc– It’s all money.
Since money is the root of many couples’ big problems, I’m actually surprised that we don’t have more posts like this available on personal finance blogs. Thank you for the post, Sarah. It was good to re-evaluate the financial systems I have in place with my hubby, and think about how we communicate about money.
I don’t know that it’s quite fair to imply that all of your communication issues are a result of your husband’s poor upbringing or dysfunctional family issues. The assumption underlying this entire piece seems to be that your choices are valid, while your husband’s are not. I know neither you nor your husband (though I have read and enjoyed your writing for many years), and I really, really try to avoid judging other people’s choices out loud (or in writing), but I can see where someone might think $45 for a box of nectaries is an unreasonable choice for a family who carries debt. I’m not arguing that you should buy conventional nectarines (which I do), but that you should, given your beliefs and your budget, forego them altogether. Is that my business? No. But is it your husband’s? Yes.
ok, I have to reply to myself b/c of nesting! sorry! Clare, I feel like your comment deserves a response and somehow I’m having trouble articulating in a few words the paragraphs that sprung to mind. Yes, of course, the $45 box of nectarines (again, it’s 20 or 25 pounds, so it’s not any more than most conventional nectarines) is something my husband can have a say in — if indeed he is here and we have time to chat about it.
The box is just a symbol (it came home with a a big sharpie mark with its price, b/c it was in the bulk order area and had to be ready for anyone to ring it up, and the box sat there in the kitchen as I ate nectarines and canned them over the next several days, shouting its price). and luckily it’s usually a joke between us. when arguments come up, it’s always part of them, which rankles — you can’t unbuy a box of nectarines, especially not when most of them have been consumed.
I do not mean to say that every problem in our relationship is because of his upbringing; what I have learned, having been around his siblings and his grandmother a lot and having seen how they approach relationships, is that the way he argues is very much a function of his family. It was certainly the case with my ex-boyfriend, as well, whose story I will probably never get into in this forum. (And lots of research indicates that you are “taught” to argue by your parents; I have done a bunch of reading on this topic, as I’ve written a long essay on fighting for a magazine.) I’m also not trying to say that I’m a perfect individual. Lots of the things I do are pretty embarrassing; coping mechanisms for the other issues in our life; and I do not hold myself up as the perfect ideal, “what to do.”
When things are bad, either in my relationship with my husband, my feelings of great challenge in living without another parent for a long time, or my issues with my kids, what I do have under my control is food. And the food I make is delicious and really not that expensive and a lot healthier than most of the other coping mechanisms I could use. Let me tell you, I’m taken aback sometimes by my pantry over-stuffed with jams and chutneys and canned nectarines. But then someone comes over and says they’re “starving!” and I pull out a jar and everyone is quiet stuffing spoonfuls of organic fruit into their mouths and I feel so grateful for my neuroses.
I’m writing a whole book on this, though, so hopefully I can find the time between my freelance jobs and my quite minor-in-the-scope-of-the-universe problems to finish it and we’ll all be happy!
I don’t mean to pile on, as you’ve taken quite a bit in the comments already, but this jumped out at me: “Yes, of course [it] is something my husband can have a say in – if indeed he is here and we have time to chat about it.” In response to a comment that said it *is* his business, you replied with 3 conditions. (1. if he’s home, 2. if there’s time, 3. even if those are both true, he “can” have a say, not “does” have a say.) Maybe you didn’t mean anything by it, and I know you’re busy with a birthday party today, but that just seemed off.
The whole problem is that he isn’t home. Saying you’re going to solve that problem by having everything be different when your husband IS home isn’t really solving the problem. The issue now is that he sees the income being spent, but doesn’t know/understand/appreciate how it’s being spent. The nectarine example has been blown out of proportion here (and I wish I didn’t have to jump on it, but it’s the only example offered), but in this situation, you wanted a box of fruit. He was mad when you bought it. So you said in your article that you’re going to go ahead and buy it next year? And you say in a comment that maybe he can have a say in it when he comes home? He’s not home. He should have a say in it now, or if not a say in the all important case-of-nectarine budget, then in the grocery budget or the weekly budget or the household budget. Even now, when he’s not there to go to the nectarine store with you.
(I’m kidding.) (Unless there really is a store that only sells nectarines?)
I am with El Nerdo – I don’t see how talking about money is possible unless you talk about all the other things behind it, including your relationships. I am not really all that interested in antiseptic posts where all the real people have been taken out and you’re left with a column of numbers. Context is everything.
Me three. It’s well established around these parts that money is more about mind that it is about manner. Since that is true, money becomes more about politics and emotions than it does about balancing a checkbook.
As someone who has been married for only two years, the stage that I’m at right now is working the money thing out with the wife. It’s one thing to allocate $X to her personal account (she’s job hunting right now) but it’s another to discuss *how* we come up with the amount.
To say that marital discussions about PF don’t belong on GRS really does the readership a disservice.
ack, very sorry to hear about this difficult situation. I agree with Suzanne (#10) that there was never a “meeting of the minds” on the spending plan, and that that’s the fundamental issue.
Would love to hear more about the situation and relationship. Based solely on information in this post, your husband comes across as controlling. Do you feel you are an equal partner in the relationship?
Skeptic, I’m just going to pick you because you’re very direct and I don’t have time today to respond to all this sort of question 🙂
Yep: there are some issues in the way he’s dealing with money and with me. He doesn’t see it as [enter your description here; I’ve used ’em all, controlling, manipulative, etc.]. I could spend 20 minutes of each phone call trying to convince him of this or I could accept that I just need to figure out a way to work around it for now.
My non-emotional approach to this is that we’ve been married for going-on-10-years and we have three boys together, a house I adore despite its need for more fix-it love, and a group of friends I don’t want to dissolve. I know how divorces work and they don’t end any of the arguments we have (how to raise the kids, how to spend the money, why you are the way you are, damn it!). They just make them more expensive and take out the part about “you have to be somewhat nice because you still have to live together.”
Are we equal partners? No, we’ve never been, our relationship has always been lopsided. Either I’ve made way more money or he has; either he’s done all the laundry or I have; I’ve always done most of the parenting, given that he’s been away a lot and I’ve been the breastfeeding, diaper-changing mama for nearly all of the time he was home. (By choice!) I want to say that we jumped into the marriage without much work to get on the same page but I don’t think that’s true; we jumped into the marriage with great optimism and belief we could get over our very different natural instincts given our very different upbringings. Turns out that’s pretty hard.
He’s hell of a lot of imperfect, but he DOES love me, and the boys, and I’m going to have to put up with him for the immediate future 🙂
Thank you for expanding on this and good luck working it out. I certainly wasn’t implying that you consider pulling up stakes, just wanted to reflect back what I was hearing. All my best.
Skeptic, thanks for the good wishes. I didn’t think you sounded like you were offering a divorce lawyer but I’ve thought through this all the way and I’ve decided: of the two options, stick it out or leave, I know which I pick 🙂
There are unforgivable things such as physical or emotional abuse where a person must leave a marriage.
But money? Pretty much every couple disagrees on that issue.
Money disagreements can add tremendous stress on an already difficult marriage. I can’t even begin to comprehend the stress of deployment on marriage. This article was really good and noted at least two ways that money causes stress in a marriage that I think apply here: Values and Control. http://www.divorce.com/article/top-five-ways-money-problems-cause-divorce
I wonder if this conflict about food spending doesn’t come from his experiences being in the military and living in a foreign land where people are surviving on much less than what you “need.” Comparing your spending to the daily situation he sees over there, it’s no wonder he’d think the amount of money you spend is outrageous…
Just a thought.
Steven, I do think that some of our misunderstandings come from his military service, but it’s not this. He has served entirely in Kuwait, where there are indeed many problems but none of them are need. In fact, it’s quite the opposite; the Kuwaiti people are extraordinarily rich and entitled (in the literal definition of the word); they all receive a huge stipend from the Kuwaiti government each month which allows them to eat all the Cinnabon and sushi they want. (I pick Cinnabon because that’s one of the places my husband has gone once or twice — in two years, mind you — with some of his colleagues and I have been shocked at the cost! Almost as much as organic nectarines.)
I think our approach to food comes more from our essential personalities (I’m the nurturer, he’s the hunter/gatherer) than our experiences.
Interesting. This is something I didn’t realize but I guess makes sense being an oil country. Hmmm…
I’m shocked by your “yes, I spent $45 on organic nectarines and will again” attitude. $45? Are you kidding? I’m with your husband. I suspect you’re spending way too much on organic food and need to get realistic (no, you don’t need to buy junk, but you don’t need 100% organic and certainly not $45 for some nectarines). I think your “education” on organics has a lot of basis in false science (which is so common these days that it makes me want to tear my hair out)! Try compromising. You sound like you want what you want and don’t want to listen to his point of view.
I want to respond to this in detail but don’t have the time. You can say “false science” all you like but I’m very desperately concerned about my kids — each of them has pervasive development or behavioral disorders that, extremely long-term and well-regarded studies have shown, are far more common among populations that have high exposure to environmental chemicals like pesticides and exhaust. We’re stuck living on a highly-trafficked road, I’m sure as heck not going to increase my kids’ chemical load by letting them ingest pesticides too. I have a very good friend who is a chemist who agrees with me. But if you think this is false science I’m probably not going to convince you! What I’ve been through with my children makes me really desperate for solutions, and if organic food makes me feel better, it’s worth the cost to me.
Re: the nectarines, I bought them not because of their organic nature but because they’re super, super delicious. They’re grown by a local farm that must be staffed by magicians. They’re amazing! I buy one box a year and that’s really only $2 a pound and I can a bunch of them to eat throughout the year and it’s so, so worth it.
Sarah, I think the cost of food is one of those topics we’ll always be split on here at GRS and in the personal finance world in general. I stopped convincing people why I eat the way I do. Why I don’t eat grains, sugars, root veggies, legumes and why I eat a lot of veggies, certain types of fruits, nuts/seeds, (many of them happen to be the big O), wild this, grass-fed that, pastured, etc.
Having a health issue that’s almost entirely affected by diet (PCOS) and another chronic illness that’s exasperated by certain foods – at least in my case (MS), diet takes precedence when it comes to my overall healthcare. Some people will never understand and I had to come to terms with that. Ironically enough, those are the same people who constantly ask me what do I do to look and feel so good most of the time.
$45 nectarines is a totally different story. 😀
Boy it’s funny, $45 nectarines gets everyone up in a tizzy, but if you had said $2 a lb organic local nectarines from the beginning, I bet most people would not have blinked an eye.
I think panties got bunched up because not because it was $2 lbs (which is a deal), but it was $45 in ‘one fell swoop’.
This times a million. I think people would not be so concerned if she’d just written they were $2/pound. I mean, look at how many times people are harping on the cost of this stuff in the comments!
I’m in a similar situation but it’s not nectarines, it’s make up, hair care, etc. For me it’s not that she’s spending money on that stuff it’s that I’m expected to give up some of my wants so she can have that stuff. For example, I wanted to go see the new Spider Man movie. I have no idea if it’s good or bad but I grew up with Spider Man and wanted to go watch it. Want yes, but technically so is her make up and hair. So I’m expected to give up something I want while she buys her wants.
It might be the same situation for your husband. Maybe if you talked to him and said, there’s something I want to buy. But instead of me just buying it we can give each other the same amounts of money to do whatever we want with it, no questions asked. As you know relationships are all about equality and comprimise (Is everyone unhappy? It’s a comprimise!…kidding). No one likes feeling like they’re giving up some of the things they want while the other person gets something.
On the groceries costing more someone mentioned bringing him along when you can to let him see just how much groceries do cost. My fiancee’s father is being generous and giving us money but he didn’t realize how much a wedding costs. Once we brought him along and showed him just how much a wedding costs today and not like it was when he got married in the 70’s he gave us more money and was more understanding. Obviously that probably won’t solve everything.
The other comment I have is that you mentioned he came in for a while and then left. You also said that you’ve noticed changes for the better in your kids since you started feeding them better food. He hasn’t had time to see the benefit. That’s said with a grain of salt too. While everyone wants to provide for their kids and give them the best chance to succeed is buying a $10 box of all natural cereal or whatever you buy that’s kind of costly really worth it? If it’s the veggies, grow your own if possible! We’ve built a garden and our grocery bills have dropped dramatically and I know exactly what’s in these veggies. There’s nothing more organic then something grown in your back yard.
Hopefully this has brought up a few ideas, given a few revalations and if anything was something to make you think about some things.
Marc,
It seems that you think of your wife’s hair and makeup desires as wants but I’m sure she sees them as needs. The cost of personal care for women is much higher for women because there are so many more societal expectations for our appearance. I don’t know your wife so I don’t know if she could make more budget friendly choices with her personal care, but I hope you will consider the pressure she feels to have a certain appearance.
Sarah, do you mean a $45 “case” of nectarines? If there were enough in there to can, it seems unlikely to have been just a ‘box’!
(My family get mad at me for buying a $3 case of tomatoes sometimes, because they believe we can’t eat all that.)
I pride myself on being really frugal but I will not skimp on quality food. For us that means mostly organic, grass-fed, etc. I think it’s interesting that the “food IQ” in this country is slowly increasing but I also detect a lot of skepticism on the benefits of organic.
So my friends, if you think organic is over-marketing, let me just suggest a few avenues for further research:
– the overuse of antibiotics in our industrial food system and the increase of drug-resistant bacteria as a result
– the health consequences to farm workers from handling massive quantities of pesticides (recommend the book “Tomatoland” if you really want to know what’s behind all of those cheap conventional wintertime tomatoes)
I could go on – we haven’t even gotten to the part where the consumer eats this stuff yet – but the point is that there is a massive agricultural industrial complex that is designed to sell us all cheap food, preferably processed. It is not designed to look out for your health or best interests.
My boyfriend and I have a joint account that works really well for us. We’ve had it for a little over two years – from the time we moved in together.
We’ve agreed on an amount that we each contribute every month to cover our joint expenses (rent, groceries, dinners out, etc.), and maintain separate finances for everything else – that money is our own business.
There have been times when one of us has not been able to meet the agreed amount due to some hardship, and the other has picked up the slack, but for the most part this system combined with a lot of communication about our expectations and priorities has helped us avoid fighting over money.
Eventually I expect that when we have a mortgage, or children, things will shift – but I think our current deliberate approach lays a good foundation for figuring out other systems that will work later.
My wife doesn’t work, she stays home with our daughter. I make all the money and pay all the bills and have an automated transfer of $250 (pretty sure that’s right) each week into her account that she can use for groceries and anything else, I never keep track of her account, or question what she spends that money on. Likewise she doesn’t really care what I buy as long as the bills keep getting paid and she keeps getting her grocery money.
It seems to work for us.
First, I want to thank your husband and you for your service.
Second, here are my suggestions:
I completely agree with the importance of quality food but buy organics from the “dirty dozen” and conventional for the other items.
http://www.organic.org/articles/showarticle/article-214
You may love the box of $45 nectarines but I bet you love your husband even more. Get some grapes, bananas, watermelon or something else as a compromise.
Grow whatever food you can. Basil is easy and so are a lot of greens and you don’t need a lot of space. A window will work.
Make chilis, soups, or other crock pot meals when your husband is in town. The food will be ready for him and you can spend more time with each other and not in the kitchen. Also, these foods can be less expensive.
The next time your husband is in town, go grocery shopping together so he can see what you purchase and why. Listen to him if he doesn’t agree with a purchase and compromise.
For the non-food related items, maybe you can do what my husband and I do. After each pay day I tell my husband “Woo Hoo, our net worth is x, now”. Whether money goes into our savings account or towards or mortgage, as long as our net worth is increasing, he is happy. Maybe your husband doesn’t see how the debt you have is going against your net worth.
Best of luck. Money issues are very difficult and I am sure they are exasperated by the time apart.
I just wanted to say I really appreciate all your ideas 🙂 I’ve tried a lot of this and think it makes sense. (Re: nectarines, they’re a once-a-year splurge and really just a symbol now, not anything to fix.)
I’ve tried the shopping together thing, but when he’s home his patience for that sort of activity is less than it would be in a normal environment, which isn’t much to begin with. One of these days, when he’s home for good, I’ll try it. I think he’s slowly coming around to my point of view re: food, but it’s hard to get a handle with our parachute-style relationship right now (he parachutes in for a visit and then he’s off to the next adventure ;).
I understand your husband’s frustration with grocery shopping. I HATE IT. My recommendation, go grocery shopping either first thing in the morning, like 6:30 or 7am, or go late in the evening to avoid the crowds. It can also be a form of entertainment to watch the people that go grocery shopping late at night. My husband and I like to create backstories about the people based on what is in their shopping carts. You will see a lot of ice cream, tissues, cat food, and wine purchases.
Another thing that gets me through grocery shopping is watching this video before I go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UFc1pr2yUU
It always makes me laugh and when I get frustrated by somebody in my way or the crowds I think to myself “Oh, it is getting real” and that makes me giggle and calms me down.
I read through the comments and $2/lb for nectarines is not crazy but if it is a symbol to him about some sort of over-indulgence in organic purchasing, then maybe don’t get them because it is important to him. If you do get them again, then at least make him a nectarine pie or ice cream upon his return!
My fiancé and I will be getting married here in less than 3 months. Our plan is a bit of a mix between combine and separate in a way that I think will work really well for us.
We will combine all of our accounts together except for 2 separate PerkStreet Debit accounts. With these accounts, we’ll have $50 per month deposited into them. This is each of our “fun money” and can be spent on going out to eat with friends, getting a manicure/pedicure, buying expensive coffee, or whatever else we want to spend it on.
Once the money runs out on our card, we are dry for the rest of the month until another $50 gets automatically added. If we don’t spend the $50 one month, we can keep saving it up to buy something bigger (an iPad or other larger toy) or give it to the other person if they want to do something outside of their limits.
We will both feel liberated to spend a bit of money on what we want to each month, but also unified in our main accounts, budget, retirement, and savings. Also, this will (almost) eliminate all of the squabbling over what’s necessary and not necessary about each other’s little money fix (mine’s coffee). I’m sure there will still be fights – but not over the little things quite as much!
Any thoughts from you married folks out there? Do you think this plan will work as well/better/worse than I think it will?
Wow $12.50 a week each. Kids in middle school get a bigger allowance than that. I’m guessing you will end up with some overdrawn fees bigger than that unless it is some type of card that simply doesn’t allow that. This is pocket change and is unlikely to work for even the most minimalist lifestyle.
$50 a month per person is too little? It works for my family. Remember they may budget things they do for fun together separately, like eating out or going to the movies. I have a ‘family fun’ budget separate from my “allowance.” This couple can each spend $600 a year in frivolous purchases on whatever they like. In Nathan’s case, it probably works out to Starbucks twice a week.
I think the idea is wonderful, and in previous comments, you see many people do this practice. I believe part of the reason this works is when you make the combined budget, you both will probably do some compromising, so this personal allowance is a nice escape from the rigidity provided by the budget.
Hhmm, my DH and I give ourselves $10 a week for “fun” money, and I almost never spend that much.
I guess how much “fun” money a person gets each week/month depends on their lifestyle. If you have kids, don’t have much time for yourself by yourself, and/or don’t live in an area where there’s much to do, $12 or so may be just fine. I’m single so there’s no “joint” activities, kids to look after and take up my free time, and I live in a city where there’s a ton of stuff to do – $12 for me would be nothing.
DAVE RAMSEY FPU!! lol. We took the class and developed a budget together, and review it monthly to see if adjustments need to he made. We have always had a joint account. We don’t keep secrets from each other about anything, including our spending. We don’t judge each other, either. And if there’s something we want that costs more than $50, we ask the other person first to discuss pros & cons. I can’t imagine having separate accounts…that would be too weird!! LOL. We share everything.
We followed Dave’s plan 6 years ago and have been debt-free since 6/09! I highly recommend his program. If you can’t afford the FPU, just buy his Total Money Makeover book and follow his babysteps. That’s what we did.
Jenay, it sounds like you have a great relationship! Hold on to that one! And after all the recommendations for Dave Ramsey — who I’ve heard mentioned a bunch of times but never read — I think I’m going to have to pick him up. Husband won’t be home for good until next April, but he has lots of time to read.
Most guys relate to Dave Ramsey. I personally prefer Mary Hunt (www.debtproofliving.com). Dave seems to focus on eventual wealth; Mary focused on day-to-day solutions. I read all the personal finance books and glean something from every one, but Mary is my favorite.
Yup, you both need to hammer out a budget, complete with livable compromises on both sides, and then stick to it. He likely won’t care what food you buy as long as you abide by the budget…and you shouldn’t be buying food your budget can’t afford, no matter HOW blissfully organic it is.
IMO you should have combined finances for needs, seperate finances for wants. Again, a budget will save you a lot of grief in that regard.
PS If you can indeed get free marriage couselling through the millitary – do it!
I suggest going back to having a joint account and come to agreement over your monthly budget and then begin really living by your budget by using a cash envelope system for things like groceries and pocket expenses. We started this 2 months ago and it has transformed everything: paying down debts faster, less arguing and stress… the budget is in charge now. After the first month we saw that we needed an unexpected line item and one for gifts. Our budget cut a lot of the fat but not to the extreme which I think is important. We keep checking in and are surprised that it hasn’t been a major issue for either of us, in a few months I think we’ll be ready to try cutting it further.
Also I know this isn’t recommended but we stuffed our savings account before tackling our debt. Now all the extra is going on the debt (except for retirement contributions and savings for our son, we are still doing that). If your husband needs some savings to feel secure pick an amount and then tackle your debt.
I can understand the stress. I’m a believer in joint finances and a joint budget, because it forces you to come together on your priorities. And it may be that your priorities will never be quite the same, but that’s okay — marriage is always about two people, with two sets of priorities and interests, coming together and being partners. Finances are just one facet of that.
In our house, the struggle is with savings. I want to set aside our savings first, and if that means the month is tight, so be it. My wife wants to pay for immediate needs first, and save whatever’s left. That’s been a constant struggle, and moderated largely by the fact that our income has increased enough that my target savings and our immediate needs generally can be met simultaneously. (Of course, then we argue about whether those savings are for retirement or kids, but that’s another story.)
Ultimately, though, I don’t think the “household allowance” model works. I’ll second the suggestion above of getting one month ahead — try using YNAB (youneedabudget.com), and sharing your screen through Skype or whatever video-call program you’re able to use. At that point, you can say, “Okay, we have $X,XXX for June.” You haggle out a budget you can both live with, and trust each other to stay within it.
This also frees you from the struggle to make up the difference with your freelance income — whether it’s big or small, it’s for next month, so it hasn’t been budgeted yet. You always know how much you’re working with, because you’re working with last month’s income and last month is done.
Off-topic from the regular post (but related to this comment)– Dave Ramsey has a really neat system for dealing with uncertain free-lance income. FPU could be a very useful class for you guys.
Mike: yes, we *should* follow this budget-for-the-next month plan. I thought I was going to be in the place where I could earlier than now, and I got off track. I think I can, I think I can — starting next month! — and I like your approach.
I’ve been married for 24 years. From Day 1 we had a joint account. It was never really an issue, but several years ago my husband began using our debit card for occasional work items (he works for a very small, somewhat backward, purchasing company). We should have used a CC (we had no CC debt) and used the reimbursements to pay it, but in any event, we decided to set up a separate checking account, so I wouldn’t get caught off guard if I’d just paid a lot of bills and then he needed to buy work related things.
ANYWAY, after about 20 years of marriage we ended up with separate accounts. He xfers a big chunk to my account (actually it’s our joint acct, but he doesn’t use it) each time he’s paid and all the bills are paid from that. We don’t keep up with the “leftovers” of each person’s account and we split all the incidentals (groceries, entertainment, etc) based on who says “I’ll pay”.
All our retirement and savings are automated, so those are taken care of.
I was really surprised how easy the separate accounts were and it’s definitely improved the financial discussions.
If there are extra expenses that require using our emerg savings (this summer was a doozy for car repair/maintenance) then we make sure we both know it.
So, separate accounts are not odd to us, even if we never considered them for our first 20 years.
I’ve been following GRS for years, and I have yet to hear a success story involving two-earner households where partner A pays ABC bills and partner B pays XYZ bills. It almost always leads to resentment in the party that feels like they are “paying more” than the other, or they perceive that their partner has “more” fun money than they do.
The only excrutiatingly proportional way to do it (in my limited life experience) is by percentage of contribution to the kitty. If A brings in 60% of the income, then A contributes 60% to the basic bills & savings & debt reduction. Subtract A’s income from A’s expenditures and whatever’s left is A’s discretionary allowance. (Likewise for B, who brings in 40%.)
Yes, A’s “allowance” will technically be more than B’s, but it is in proportion to what A and B are each contributing. Of course, A and B can mutually agree to split their combined remaining amounts 50-50, which could also work out.
My husband and I still haven’t merged our accounts, but we did find a solution we agreed was fair to “You pay ABC, I’ll pay VWXYZ.” We assign bills to each so that the amount we’re left with at the end of the month is equal. So that means I bring in 2x as much as he does, but I pay something like 3x what he does, and we both have almost $1,000 left over for whatever we want. There’s not resentment because at the end of it, we have equal amounts of purchasing power.
That’s essentially what we do, though we don’t much care if we have “equal” amounts left over at the end of the month. We are in a long-term-view mindset and what’s important is that the debt balances keep going steadily down while the savings balances keep going steadily up.
Who contributes what isn’t as important because we do plan to be together unto death, and we do share a vision for how to live together until then. 🙂
I hate the proportional system. You’re married; you’re part of a partnership and each of you contribute in different ways.
Frequently, one partner makes career/financial sacrifices to support the other person’s career, especially when there are children involved. My career may be limited by my geographic location, but if a great opportunity comes up halfway across the country, I can’t very well pick up and move away from my spouse/family to up my earnings like I could as a single person. Should I be negotiating with my spouse for a lower contribution than my actual percentage based on lost opportunities? Is person A doing 60% of the household chores, too?
I would resent the heck out of my (hypothetical, mind you) husband if I worked a job with stable hours and not a lot of advancement in order to be the main care provider for the kids/house/family and he thought my lower “contribution” entitled him to have more spending money each month. Maybe everyone doesn’t feel that way, and that’s more than fine, obviously, but I know that a potential spouse with that view of my contributions to the household is a deal breaker for me.
Married 7 years, separate accounts and we split some bills evenly and others I pay bill A and he pays bill B. Some months he may end up paying more, some I may end up paying more.
Whatever, it all comes out in the wash. I think the trick is that we make enough that a few hundred bucks here and there isn’t really going to make a difference in our lifetime wealth.
The time savings of not having to hash out each penny on expenditures that change from month to month is well worth the disparity in monthly payments.
This is basically what we do. Early in our relationship we tried to split things perfectly evenly, but that quickly became more trouble than it was worth. Instead we have some things he pays, some I pay, and some whoever has the money at the moment pays and it all works out in the end.
We could never ever EVER have joint accounts, not because of goals but because of attitudes. He hates tracking and doesn’t mind scraping the bottom of his accounts, even paying an occasional NSF fee. I must know to the penny how much I have, and I like a fat cushion. Mutually exclusive preferences. 🙂
Before we married that is what we did, we each put a chunk into the kitty for our joint bills based on income and we were responsible for our own personal bills. That worked well for us.
Post-marriage, all money that comes into the household is our money and I pay all the bills and put aside money for saving and we each get the same amount for day to day spending. I don’t get more money to spend because I earn more, how is that fair?
I don’t know, my husband and I do not share finances. He pays more since he earns more but what bills each of us pays is set. He pays mortgage, cell phones, his own car and it’s taxes, insurance for both cars and the heating oil bill in the winter. I pay cable, internet, phone, electric, groceries and my own car and it’s taxes. We each pay our own retirements and our own student loans. I tend to pay for vacations and other discretionary spending. We are happliy married 5 years next month and have no plan to start sharing finances anytime soon.
Oh and to address the OP, perhaps a regular job would help. No begging needed and you can buy all the 45$ nectarines you like.
To be clear, I didn’t say it was “fair” (implying all amounts were equal), I said “proportional”. If someone earns more, they should – and actually do, if you do the math – pay more toward the bills. Like I said at the end of my post, if both partners agree to split the surplus 50-50, that is their choice.
What I don’t think is “fair” is if someone only brings home $2,000 while the other partner brings home $1,000, yet the person who only brings home $1,000 is supposed to pay an equal amount of bills. What if their “fair share” of the household bills exceeds their monthly pay? Do they get nothing at the end of the month with which to spend as they please without “asking” their partner for money? What I have seen happen more often than not is the partner who earns the $2,000 will start babysitting what the other is spending. Particularly if they make a “big” purchase. I watched this happen growing up when my dad was earning more than my mom, and constantly picked at her over her spending, but he got to spend the money that “he” had earned any way he pleased. She should have been entitled to play money based on what she had earned, just the same as he was. This is the same thing that the writer is describing – her husband is picking at her over the amount of her spending, and she is picking at him over his purchase choices.
Anyway, I do want to thank the responders who shared successful models of the ABC and XYZ payment systems. I can see how those could potentially work based on what you describe.
Managing finances between couples can be hazardous due to the emotional baggage we attach to it. There are tools out there that can help you automate your finances so everything is transparent and no one is hiding anything. Begin by starting a Mint.com account. This site will have all your financial information one one page. You can set up a monthly budget for all your expenses. I didn’t know that we were spending $1200 a month for 2 people on groceries. I just assumed it was around $600-800 a month. Mint.com can also send you alerts and weekly updates to your cell or computer. Next, set up
“While money cannot but happiness, a lack of money ensures unhappiness.” Someone wise, via my mom.
– – – – – – – – – – – – –
1) Most of our arguments about money were retroactive.
2) Since [he joined the army] he’s made the majority of the income… I paid the bills, like always.
3) I was the one with most of the expenses outside of bills
– – – – – – – – – – – – –
I’m reading this as A) the two of you have never sat down and AGREED on a long term -plan and budgeting that works for BOTH of you and B) you’ve always taken care of the groceries, cleaning products, car repair, clothing, etc. (perhaps for his stuff too?), as well as the fixed monthly bills.
– – – – – – – – – – – – –
4) he came home [we examined the finances] and couldn’t come to a good understanding here [regarding saving for an emergency fund vs. paying off debt]
5) [we then had a fight over food not limited to cost – he wants “easy” and you want “healthy”]
6)[During the fight] It [didn’t] matter whether my food budget [was] $X a month or $Y a month. It mattered that I spent $Z on [thing that I like].
– – – – – – – – – – – – –
Because you didn’t have that plan – one that you both knew and agreed to – you ended up having a fight over money that escalated into a fight over food – and he didn’t/doesn’t respect your choices there.
You then have a whole section on food. This is irrelevant. It could be the rent premium to live somewhere with “X” (good schools, near transportation or family, etc.) or something else. The thing is – there’s something you disagree on the importance of – and rather than setting a budget and keeping your/his nose out, there’s continuing judgement.
In the house example; if you lived close to X; and instead of a 3 bedroom you had a 2 bedroom. The disagreement might be over space (the kids really each need their own room; I need my office, etc. etc.) One partner trusted the other with a budget, while gone, to make the call, and now that they’re back is unhappy with it.
So you two “worked out” a new system where…
– – – – – – – – – – – – –
7) he would start a separate account, get paid into that account, and he would pay all the bills, then put money in savings, and give me money for food, babysitting, and other household expenses if I needed it
8) He thinks I don’t need as much money as he sends me, [but hasn’t asked any other families about their budgets]
8) I would pay for [additional/ healthier/ organic] food out of my freelance income… I do [make enough to pay for all the groceries and babysitting my little heart could desire], some months, and those are so much easier between us.
10) Now if I [don’t] make enough …I’d have to go ask him for money.
12) Sometimes our communication was mixed up, causing late fees or overdrafts… I was paying more fees for ATM withdrawals, among other things.
13) If I was late sending him a bill I’d feel bad and want to pay it myself.
– – – – – –
This seems like a bad system. It’s causing fees and other expenses; your domestinc budget is getting re-routed to bills; one adult is forced to play “mother may I?” and be second guessed by another … so why were you doing this?
– – – – – –
13) He came up with a plan to stop the fighting…
14) It set up a weird dynamic between us… it gave him a lot of power to say “no” if he thought my use [of money] wasn’t a good one. [He said] I only ever wanted to talk to him about money. The problem escalated as the months went on, until…
14) we came to a kind of agreement about a budget he’d give me, and not ask how I was using it.
– – – – – – –
Is he not asking? Is the budget enough? Or are you bearing all of the strain on this?
I’m also concerned that you can’t access the accounts he set up. The accounts with most of the $ in them. That’s a level of DISTRUST that would be enough for me to walk out of a marriage – it sounds like he’s more into control than setting a reasonable budget and trusting you as an adult and he’s willing to risk you and the kid (kids?) in case of an emergency to keep that control.
Is that what you were trying to say?
Your conclusions are too narrow – the problem is NOT with your account structure (joint accounts didn’t work, and neither are separate ones) it’s with your TOTAL APPROACH to finances. Fix that (through one of the solutions provided) and the other should take care of itself.
But it doesn’t sound to me like he want’s to change; it’s HIS solution, HE’s PROUD of paying the bills, etc. etc. — so there may come a time you need to either submit to what he wants or serve him papers. Money is power and right now he’s got all of it.
Anne: wow, thanks for that very thoughtful analysis (if you’re not a relationship counselor maybe you should be!). I think you’re probably right on with most of your conclusions. Yes, you’re right, this is not about joint accounts vs. separate accounts. (I don’t think I went into this post with the belief that having joint accounts would fix anything, because, as you mentioned, this isn’t really about that.)
We do need to sit down and get to the same page with our approach to finances. I hope that will happen, but it’s unlikely to in the next year so I’m just trying to take what lessons I can from our ongoing struggles.
As I noted above, I’m (not unhappily or resentfully) resigned to the fact of the marriage. We have three boys and a house we love equally in the neighborhood where we both grew up and went to high school (and met). It’s far easier to argue over finances within the structure of marriage than without. When it comes down to it, I think this is more about how we deal with stress than how we deal with money; I came out of my childhood with a lot more tools for dealing with stress than he did.
Yep, we can use more of that paid-for-by-our-military-benefits counseling and I’m sure we will try it when he gets home for good. They even have weekend retreats with child care! Which he’s mentioned several times and I have agreed would be a great idea… when we can.
My best coping mechanism is just to make more money so we don’t HAVE to get in these basic struggles — so the stress can be caused by something other than my fruit budget. And that’s what I’m working hard on right now.
Given that, and that it’s my five-year-old’s birthday today (!! my youngest child is now five !!), I’m probably going to be less responsive in this comment section for the rest of the day. But thank you for reading and responding, Anne and all!
Thanks for the kind response.
I’ve just seen similar in a friend’s military marriage , and in a large number of my parent’s peers (peer’s parents?) when they divorced. It’s about how differences can be amplified when there’s not “enough.” And how those differences can lead to a loss of respect.
For a number of those peer’s parents – it seemed to me – that after fighting though college, career, etc. when a mom stayed home with a kid for a year (or 3 or 5) all of the respect disappeared. I came out of it determined to never be financially dependent on anyone.
“As I noted above, I’m (not unhappily or resentfully) resigned to the fact of the marriage. We have three boys and a house we love equally in the neighborhood where we both grew up and went to high school (and met).”
You’re “resigned” to accept a marriage for kids and a house.
How depressing.
Our accounts have been joint since 1996 when we married. My husband is the primary provider right now and for the foreseeable future due to a layoff from my teaching position. We live in a small city and there is only one school district, so until we move, he makes more. There have been times when he was unemployed, I worked, but most of our marriage, we have both worked. He has always made more money than I. We have a pretty simple system:
1. I pay all the bills.
2. I budget (Excel spreadsheet.)
3. We both get a small weekly allowance ($40-$60 each.)
4. We have a GREEN American Express card each.
5. We discuss any and all major purchases past our allowances first. Major purchases mean non grocery items.
6. I tell him when we are nearing the edge of our monthly expenses.
7. I tell him when we need to cut back on our budget.
8. When we are in cutback mode (such as right now, because of my job loss,) we don’t eat out, we travel less, we buy used items rather than new, etc.
Money is power, and power struggles are the bane of relationships. I am not a therapist, but if your goal for organic food only is too expensive, and if his goal is to manage the families money all by himself, there is a power struggle. He doesn’t agree with your goal, you don’t agree with his. Therefore, the issue is not money, it is rather a fundamental disagreement in the marriage. Get thee to a decent therapist and work through it. No sense in having something as stupid and meaningless as MONEY, for God’s sake, hurt a marriage between two otherwise loving and great people…..
I don’t know you, but I feel for you. Get on the same page, whatever that means. You don’t want to be talking about money all the time, especially since you don’t get to talk every day. Either take back the reins of your household finances, or separate your accounts. This will drive you nuts if you don’t take action, and it’ll snowball into a much bigger fight if you’re not careful. Good luck!
We have both separate and joint accounts. When we get paid, we each deposit a set amount in the joint account to cover all our bills and savings. The amount deposited depends on how much each of us is earning (for example, if my husband brings in 70% of the income, he covers 70% of the bills & savings). Anything remaining from our respective paychecks goes in our respective personal checking accounts and can be spent however we want, no questions asked from the other spouse.
My husband and I use a similar system (after trying – and miserably failing – at most others). All of our money goes into the same checking account 1st, and I have a spreadsheet that tracks cash flow by month, based on our % contribution (because I get paid bi-weekly, sometimes I bring home more than he does in a given month). We even set up separate line items for major purchase savings, taxes/insurance (which gets pulled once a week into another account), and depreciation. We each contribute a % to these buckets, and all is subtracted from the inflow. Once we got rolling with this system, our fights about money evaporated.
We both could see exactly where the money was going, and what was left over for “extra” expenditures. I could see exactly how much was there for household items (which now have their own line-item in the budget), and he has a comfort level that we had enough to pay the bills (which was the actual root cause of his anxiety).
Okay, I had a hard time summarizing this so I’m going to break my comment into 2 posts. This one is the general one.
GENERAL MARRIAGE ISSUES
I’ve been married for 8 years, plus a year and a half living together before that, so we had a progressive merging of finances. Since being married we have joint accounts and we have shared it all since then.
In those 8 years we’ve had little money, but plenty of money fights, and I think we’ve eventually arrived to a harmonious arrangement, and it was worth the effort– it was a huge effort though. (I just read her this part and she agrees, so this isn’t wishful thinking on my part.)
While my wife and I love and support each other deeply, we also came to our marriage with:
-different attitudes about earning money and employment
-different attitudes about spending money and priorities
-different attitudes about saving and security
-different attitudes about debt and the future
-different attitudes about numbers! (really)
-different attitudes about communication
-different social and cultural backgrounds (including different social classes)
-various emotional issues (who doesn’t?)
On top of that, we’ve generally had little money for a variety of reasons (choice of career, etc.) That always adds to the stress, although I’ve found that money issues will gobble any budget regardless of size– just ask MC Hammer!
In spite of these challenges, thanks to our commitment to making our marriage a priority, we’ve hammered out many agreements on these areas over the years while working out or “issues” at the same time.
Looking back, it’s really been an awesome journey, and we’re really proud of it. Honest, I’m not boasting, it just feels great to have overcome so much and to see our hard work pay off.
And while we have been working out our finances since the start, we didn’t really hit the winning formula until very recently.
And the winner (for us) is… the Balanced Money Formula. It’s GREAT. It’s great because it helps us stay safe, but it also lets us have fun. It also provides an objective, control-neutral plan that gives you a good blueprint for negotiation.
No, we aren’t rich, not even close, but we are making progress. We still have some debts to pay off, we still have our stresses, but we no longer fight about money because we have found common ground. Is that great or what?
Before we found this, we were following the Dave Ramsey plan, and we had no fun, which was stressful, and the stress of it set my wife as the rebel and me as the enforcer–not a good dynamic for a marriage. Ramsey’s ideas were immensely helpful though, and they’ve changed our outlook radically, but we can’t really follow his plan in the long run.
As Warren says, extreme budgeting is like a crash diet– it works for a while but it’s hard to sustain. Maybe some people can do it together if they both have it in them, but you can’t have two people going in opposite directions. And having to discuss every purchase over 20 bucks (or 50 or whatever) was too much headache. The Balanced Money Formula was more than a compromise, it was a win-win solution for us.
So the only budget we have to discuss now is how to spend our fun money– will it be organic chocolates? Or wine? Or shoes? Or hiking gear? Whatever, it’s not stressful because the stakes are LOW.
Before Ramsey we had tried the “Smart Couples Finish Rich” book but we got lost listing our values and what they meant to us and we had nothing concrete. We never made it to the end of the book, to be honest– it seemed overly complicated. Besides, we felt it was written for people with higher incomes than us. The values exercise was good though, and I’d recommend every couple tries it out (it’s at the beginning of the book).
Before that we read different books together that slowly changed our attitudes towards money and debt and earning and work and other things– Kyosaki’s “Rich Dad”, Tim Ferris’s “Four Hour Workweek”, various Suze Orman videos… none of it worked out as a formula but it all made a dent in some way, and in the end we’ve grown together closer and we’re happy with the results.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np4-4OcZeEs
hah hah ha. i just wish there was a video of a couple doing that.
El Nerdo,
I’ve read both of your postings. I congratulate both you and your wife for finding a financial connection. And as you have written, it wasn’t easy. Too many people just give up too early. I also love the triangulation comment–it’s so true.
I agree that Ramsey’s plan can be quite stressful on couples. Seriously. My wife and I were always arguing because I was trying to pay down debts “Gazelle style”, even though she didn’t want to be so aggressive. Eventually, I caught on to the fact that a couple has to agree on whatever system is put in place.
Quite often, though, one person will always argue that his or her system is the better approach (i.e. this will get us out of debt faster, it was only $XX, you bought this yesterday why can’t I buy [fill in the blank] today?).
Chapter 16, We are on Different Pages than our Significant Others, in my personal finance book is devoted to couples and their finances. In summary, it challenges couples to work together to create a plan that both people agree to.
Again, thanks for your well thought out post for Sarah and struggling couples all over the Blogosphere.
Our joint account works fine. We use cash envelopes for food, gasoline, entertainment, gifts, clothing and child care (daily care + occasional babysitting). We replenish those on the first of the month with the allotted agreed-upon amount. We use electronic bill pay for everything else. We also have $2,500 cash in an emergency envelope.
So first off, no one really “pays” most of our bills. It’s all automatic.
For the envelope categories, once the money in an envelope is gone for the month, that’s it. By agreement, we can dip into the emergency envelope for gasoline (we can’t always reasonably predict the price of gasoline) but not for the other 3 categories. If any of those go empty, we have to discuss it and come to an agreement before any more money is spent.
If money is left over at the end of the month, it stays in the envelope. That means the spouse who buys groceries (me, in our home) is free to save extra food money month to month in anticipation of a month when grocery spending will be higher… e.g. your nectarine month.
For gifts, since we have a very large family, we decide at the beginning of the year how much we will spend for each relative on birthdays and Christmas, add it all up and divide by 12. That way we’re not scrounging around for gift money in December. We do the same for clothing… we don’t need clothing every month, but we can reasonably assume we will need to replace X garments per family member per year. Add it all up and divide by 12, and the unspent portion just rolls over.
The problem I have with separate accounts is that it sets up this dynamic where, instead of feeling like equals, you’ve got a parent/child thing going on. Every time there’s a bump in the road, one of you is going to the other with your hand out saying “Mother, may I?” You’ve gone from having marital assets to his and hers. To me it’s like going backwards, from marriage (union) back to living together.
I think I can appreciate where Sarah was going with this – money is the cause of a lot of stress in marriages – or maybe it’s something else – but money seems to expose it in the worst way. And I think that it’s really unfair to talk in generalities about something so specific – so the honesty is kinda required.
Unfortunatly the post came accross to me as her looking for the GRS audience to lambast her husband for not letting her spend what she wants. So she can go back to him and say – “see, all these people think you’re being controlling”. Which, top me, is the worst kind of maniupulation ever. I know it’s an overfused term but – passive aggressive to a T. Note to J.D. as editor – I’m really disappointed that you let her use GRS this way!
For Sarah, it seems like you’re looking for advice – talking to a friend who was deployed – she stated that her fellow soldiers had more trouble with financial infidelity than the other kind.
***For a lot of her fellow soldiers returning home and finding out that their spouse had basically ‘squandered’ their sacrifice of time away from friends and family and risk of life on consumerism was harder to bear than actual marital infidelity.***
While you claim that it’s ‘groceries’ rather than pedicures – living in the northwest there is no earthly reason to spend $45 on nectarines. Buck up and eat melons (or god forbid – blueberries, or apples since you live in a place that fresh organic fruit is plentiful and cheap) for a year or two till you get back on your feet and your husband is home with you to enjoy them.
Bella, I am not now or do I ever plan on using the comments in my posts to try to convince my husband of something. I won’t share these comments with him — I’ve discussed this enough with him and really would rather not. As I mentioned at the end of the post, we’ve come to a tentative agreement. He gives me a budget and doesn’t ask what I use it for. (and if you’re wondering, will he come read this post and see the comments himself, probably not; he has extremely limited time for reading and, because he’s had enough of this argument too, I won’t link to it on Facebook)
You’re right, it WOULD be awful if I did that. But it’s not what I’m doing.
What I’m asking is if there are strategies for overcoming the inherent problems of maintaining separate accounts. The marriage counseling stuff will have to wait for later.
I don’t see finances as a problem in your relationship, I see them as a symptom. The real issue that I see is that:
1) There was a plan in place for the money while he was gone that he didn’t know about (or agree with).
2) Instead of making a joint plan, the issues from that have been buried by partially separating finances.
I will ask this question–how is it that you paid down debt and your husband didn’t know about it? Did you both never talk about finances or give updates on money things? If that was your idea for what to do with the money, did you mention it and he agreed and then forgot?
Whole food and junk food aside, I think you guys need to sit down and talk goals and plans. You both seem to be approaching things as individuals, not a joint-venture. There isn’t a lot of compromise described in your piece, just concession (on each of your parts).
I don’t always follow your articles Sarah, so I’ll ask: have you two discussed what you want to do in 5 years? 10 years? It’s easier to be on the same financial page if you have the same goals. Have you started a garden (if possible) to defray food costs? Has he offered to buy certain instant foods for himself while you lower the food bill to compensate for that when he’s home?
If he doesn’t want to ask around on base about money issues, has he looked at government statistics? Or even the GRS article on how much a month readers spend on food? (https://axis-monolith.live/ask-the-readers-how-much-do-you-spend-on-food/%3C/a%3E ).
What I see is, “I don’t agree with your decision,” and then an attempt to minimize personal impact (shifting money, paying things out of a different acct, etc.), on both your parts. I really think this is more of a counseling situation to get to the underlying issues and work toward compromises.
Best of luck to you.
Lots of interesting comments on this one. I just wanted to chime in and say I fully support your choice to buy organic food for your family. I too have children and have seen how nutrition and behavior are linked (not to mention general health). $2/lb for delicious nectarines that they will eat is a bargain.
In our country, processed food is cheap. Hence our obesity crisis and the related health issues. When you factor in the chemicals and other things used to grow our food — well, it explains a lot.
I confess that I cannot always afford to buy organic, but I certainly make the effort when I can. Kudos.
The breadwinner role shifts back and forth. Someday soon, you may be the breadwinner again.
The conflict arises when money is not seen as a tool which which to obtain necessities, but as power. The issue here isn’t organic groceries. It’s power.
I’m not a therapist, but I implore you to find a way to be a team when it comes to finances. Whatever system ends up working best for you (joint or seperate accounts, envelope system, fun money allowances) is completely negotiable.
And you will never completely agree on absolutely everything. But when financial arguments break out in our house, we arrive back at these conclusions: We are a team. We want whatever is best for our family. Money is a tool (insert juvenile giggle).
I’m no organic food purist, but I’m still going to have to side on you with this one.
Your husband wants it both ways–he likes that his kids are eating organic, but he doesn’t want to spend the money on it. For the kids’ sake, he’s not going to stop you from buying that kind of food. But for his own sake, he’s going to berate you for spending the money on it.
It’s one or the other. He can’t get the benefits (whatever they may be) of his kids eating organic and still feel superior from being the “smart” budget-conscious one in the marriage.
He needs to make a choice. If he believes the food is worth it for his kids, he needs to budget for those costs. If he doesn’t, then he needs to discuss the merits of the diet with you and talk about that–not the money.
“The bank treats accounts that are getting direct deposit from the government very differently than those that are receiving direct deposits from private companies, so I was paying more fees for ATM withdrawals, among other things”
I bank with USAA too and they’ve always reimburse my ATM withdrawal fees. Doesn’t USAA reimburse you guys too?
Perhaps separate or joint accounts are not really the issue in this conflict.
From your narrative- power, control and fear of the unknown seem to be a few of the underlying issues you should discuss.
The grudges you mentioned- caused by continued financial and emotional stress- in a dispute like this can easily lie beneath the surface and grow at an alarming rate.
What makes saving so much more important to him than paying off debt? Is it because he’s overseas and worried something might happen to him? Is this his way of giving himself peace of mind that if something does happen- you have some money set aside?
These and other similar questions need to be asked.
I wish you the best in your search for a solution.
We have been a married for 16 years military couple. He has been deployed twice, for about 2 years total. I have this theory that deployment brings out the best and worst in relationships. Not often that you get a second and third honeymoon for your average couple, but the flip side is that anything that is lurking is going to rear its ugly head. Hang in there. Do the counseling when you can. I do think that paying bills from deployment is just not a workable solution.
For us, joint accounts and money have not been our issue for our family finances. He spent VERY little money during deployments….doesn’t do body building “supplements”, smoke, etc., and he generally spends very little on himself…expensive running shoes, but that is really it.
That being said, he doesn’t want to do the finances and is happy with how I handle them. BUT, I get very irritated for the number of unreimbursed “work” expenses we “have” to fork over for….numerous awards banquets, dinners, picnics, breakfasts, lunches, dinner, for him as well as those he supervises. We’re not talking small potatoes here, either, I totaled up over $1,200 in expenses in the six months since he has been back. I STRONGLY feel he shouldn’t have this “tax” to work. We go back and forth about this ALL THE TIME. We’d have much less disagreement if he spent the money on himself.
So, as you read, I have no easy solution. I do however, feel your pain! Military life with kids is not for the faint of heart.
@ Mom, I understand your resentment towards the “tax” that he pays in the line of duty, but it is an umwritten obligation of leaders. Some units actually do put some thought into the planning of these activities and ask for a monthly donation that is scaled, an somewhat equitable. That said, many times there are events or multiple events that aren’t forseen or perhaps not communicated to the rest of the team (family members).
It doesn’t sound like this is something that you cannot afford, but something that you dont’ understand and resent. If he has a problem with it, he should speak to the command and maybe they can put a cap on the amount they “tax”.
You said that you wouldn’t mind if he spent it on himself, so look at it that way.
In a way he is paying it forward, helping to provide awards, celebrations, etc. that would not happen if not for the “tin-cupping”. Some of these expenses may even be tax deductible, check with you tax preparer so that you know what records/reciepts to keep. Good luck!
So, I just have to know: Where and when can I order these amazing nectarines?
they’re Columbia Blossom nectarines: http://columbiablossom.com/fruit-schedule/ I order a case of 20-25 pounds from my local grocery co-op; People’s; but I think most local grocers carry them in season. they’re famous within a very narrow geographic area!
Okay, part 2, quickly because I gotta run
FOR SARAH
Being married long-distance has to be tremendously stressful, so let me start by saying I do admire your resiliency and I wish you the very best.
Just from reading your post I wouldn’t infer this is about your husband wanting to gratuitously lord it over you and that you should consider divorce lawyers (if I read Anne’s post correctly). The thought alone makes me shudder. Why even mention divorce? Yikes! It’s like trying to settle a discussion with a shotgun.
I’d say, again from your article, your husband appears more concerned about sticking to the budget and trying to save his family from potential destitution even if he has to be dreaded disciplinarian. I mean, if he loves you and your kids as you say, why would he mean harm.
And yes, THIS ISN’T THE RIGHT WAY TO DO IT OF COURSE, but what I’m saying is, it’s not necessarily about oppression or gender wars, it might just be about you two having the discipline of sticking to the budget.
Problem is, doesn’t look like you have worked out a budget, or the budget is unsustainable, or the budget lacks of objectivity and it’s based on arbitrary parameters.
Anyway, the way to eliminate the power and control issues is not to separate accounts but to JOINTLY set up:
1) Common goals
2) A plan to get there
3) A budget to fit the plan
As explained in my post above, Dave Ramsey was great but unsustainable for us, so we later opted for the Balanced Money Formula and it’s working out pretty great.
If you do the BMF, then you make a budget for *basic* groceries and count it as your “needs” and then you buy the organic nectarines and fancy chocolates from the “wants” portion of the budget, end of story.
Just so you know, *I went broke shopping at Whole Foods* in the early years of my marriage. We argued a lot about it because we didn’t have the cash, but I argued that I didn’t want to get cancer, and what was more important, debt or cancer? Debt or cancer? Riiiiight…? (Yes, I was stupid.)
Anyway, there is a balance between organic food fetishism and going broke. These days I buy pesticide-free tomatos at Costco, currently $3.40 for the 2-lb box. Organic carrots $5 for 10-lb bag. Occasionally we’ll buy treats at the food coop or boutique-priced farmer’s market, but I’m not going to go bankrupt in order to save the world. There are ways to get good deals and make compromises with reality.
BEYOND MONEY
What you don’t want to introduce into any relationship though is TRIANGULATION. This is the nasty habit of bringing a 3rd party to impinge upon the relationship and take sides. The relationship thus changes from “one to one” to “two against one”. *IT IS VERY TOXIC* Avoid it like the plague.
Triangles can be created literally or metaphorically with well-meaning friends, mothers in law, restaurant waiters, blog audiences, books and movies and tv people, etc. Parents also do it when they tell their kids “why can’t you be more like….?”
Triangles are also created when you ask your husband to “compare” what he does with what “others” do. Of course he will refuse– he doesn’t want to invite the whole army base into your bedroom.
Some readers have also read a triangle into your article as well– I’m not sure about that though, but the potential for trouble is there: “Hey look at what the bad man is doing to me.” “Oh you poor child, let us interfere, and take sides with you.” I don’t think you’re doing that, but it could be read that way.
Triangles are learned from the cradle though, so they are entered upon unconsciously, and you need awareness and perpetual vigilance to avoid them. They are so common we don’t even think about them, but watch any sitcom involving couples and if you want a crash course. You’ll soon be able to detect them in real life.
What you need is one-on-one negotiation and the setting of common goals, in an atmosphere of love and loyalty and trust, not a bunch of strangers taking imaginary sides in your disputes. If you need the help of a 3rd party, make sure it’s a qualified professional, not someone who will take sides and break you up.
Anyway, I learned about triangles in therapy and I’ve learned to avoid them like the plague they are. Therapy is awesome! (Best education I ever got.)
Okay, sorry this one is sloppy, but it’s well-intentioned, and there is no edit button, and maybe I’m totally off the mark, but I have to run. Best wishes!
I have to run, too (I promised my five-year-old I’d make him an apron and I’ve got to get sewing!) but thanks for this great comment. the piece about triangulation is helpful advice and seems true; it’s far too often that we bring in others’ perspective and that just mucks things up. (your therapist can send me a bill. a very small bill, hopefully.)
My hope is that, even though we’re talking mostly about financial concerns, we can also get some helpful hints on how to work out problems of any sort; as with everything money is symbol/symptom/expression of other things going on in our lives and my belief is that stories help us examine lives and find the parts to celebrate and the parts to manage away through the hard work of self-improvement.
thanks as always for your thoughtful comment-essays!
I feel very fortunate that my husband and I have very similar goals when it comes to money. Primarily, we don’t like to spend money on unnecessary expenses (we have reduced eating at restaurants from once a week to less than once a month, and only for special occasions), we do lots and lots of research and planning for large expenses, and save up for them if necessary, and we don’t carry consumer debt.
We began to merge our budgets before we got married, shortly after moving in together. It was too difficult to try and keep our joint expenses equally divided, so I got a credit card and we used that to buy anything for both of us, and we paid the balance every single month, split 50/50. This worked really well, and our primary expenses were Internet and groceries, so the balance was never too high to pay.
Shortly before getting married, we started a joint checking account, and everything has been jointly owned ever since, with one small exception.
About a year ago, we both developed hobbies that could be expensive. I would catch myself spending $200 in a month on mine, and then feel squeamish when I saw he had spent another $200 in the same month. We talked about it and decided we each should have a “just for me” account, and every month we each get $100 put into that account. This way we don’t have to ask “how much did *that* cost?” and we have a built-in budget for our frivolous expenses.
I appreciated the honesty in this article. My husband and I are still trying to work out some of these issues after 5 years of marriage–as are most of our friends after several years of marriage. Getting on the same page and agreeing to a budget is not easy. So, I envy those of you with everything figured out. We’ll just keep trying!
I’m not sure what the fuss is about with the nectarines. She enjoys some, preserves the rest and nothing goes to waste–for $2 a pound, once a year. This is what it’s like to can–buy in bulk, which is an expense in one month, then you have some for the rest of the year.
I wish you luck, Sarah!
The fuss with the nectarines is that the article itself only mentions a “$45 box of nectarines,” and only if you sift through the comments do you get an actual per pound cost. I’m guessing most people aren’t automatically imagining a 20+ pound box when they read the description. When it breaks down to $2/lb, it doesn’t even seem worth mentioning.
Ahh… I saw a box for $45 and automatically assumed many pounds–since I buy fruit in bulk over the summer.
Separate accounts work well for us (7 years and counting). We do have similar financial goals, and spending/saving styles, and do earn similar money.
But the key to this working is communication with your partner. You have to come to a good understanding of your common goals and have a plan to accomplish those goals together.
I think that you are conflating communication issues with your husband with the fact that your accounts are separate. One problem has very little to do with the other.
Everyone seems to be concerned with these “$45 nectarines”! But without mentioning or acknowledging the SIZE of the box!
You mentioned in one post that it works out to be appr $2/lb!!!! That seems liek a very reasonable deal to me! And even more so when you consider all of the perks! (LOCAL, delicious, organic, etc)
Thank you for you candor!! 🙂
To me it’s not so much the “$45 nectarines” it’s that if you’re complaining about a grocery bill adding $45 isn’t doing what you need to do to lower your debt. When I’m about to buy something I ask myself a question a few different ways. Buy this or pay off debt, buy this or retire a bit earlier, buy this or pay off the house?
Usually once I’ve done this and thought about it for a few seconds no, I don’t need to go to the movies I can wait for it to come out on redbox or something.
When you’re trying to live in a budget for groceries…say $200 a week? That’s extremely large for my fiancee and myself but that $45 box is a quarter the budget for one item, regardless of the size. Our budget is actually $100 for groceries and entertainment per week so that box is now half of our budget. So even though it comes out to $2 a pound that seems more like justification than anything.
If you’re wanting to reward yourself set a goal. Maybe when you pay off an extremely large debt that you had buy those nectarines with the money that would have been the payment. Then roll the rest of that money into your next debt. Yes I follow Dave Ramsey’s plan too! 🙂 You might not get a box of nectarines every year but they’ll be even sweeter when you get them.
the large purchases should even out over a year – it’s like if your budget for car repairs is $50/mo and you have a $400 bill this month. It didn’t blow the budget if you were allocating that money all along.
Shopping like this – whether it’s local produce when it’s cheap in season, or frozen products when they hit a magic coupon-and-sale-price moment – can be cheaper overall than buying in little bits over time – that $2/pound price won’t be true of fresh nectarines of inferior quality this winter when they’re eating canned ones. It’s not always cheaper, it takes paying attention, but that’s true of any grocery budgeting method other than the “ramen and cheerios the last week of the month” one.
Correct, your large purchase should even out over the year..if you’re budgeting for them. It was never said if this was budgeted for or if this was just an impulse buy because they’re ripe and it’s the right time of the year.
It was said that it was a once a year purchase. It was also said that it was a case of 20 to 25 lbs in some comments that Sarah left later on. Do you absolutely have to buy the entire case? Sure if some are canned you can divide it out over the year but to me that wasn’t the problem. Trying to divide it out over the year is just muddying the water.
it’s only muddying the waters to the extent that fighting over a single large purchase (mine would be $100 of tomatos in a single week in late August/early September, when they get super cheap around here) masks the fact that it isn’t those large purchases that are causing overages in the grocery budget – either overall spending is too high, or allocation is too low, or both.
Grocery costs have gone up a lot in the last decade, even if your buying habits haven’t changed. And kids eat a lot more as they get older. So it might even be that the organic/grassfed stuff isn’t the problem – it might just be that given a certain baseline of good eating for the kids (fruit, vegetables, milk, whole grains) and a certain amount of variety/convenience, it’s not possible to eat as cheaply as her husband wants. I know around here, the price of the same whole wheat local organic flour I have always bought has nearly doubled over the last 10 years, because I reuse the same canister for it and I have old labels from when it was 65 cents/#. We also have a school age child who costs 100% more to feed than the breastfed baby I had 6 years ago. If my partner wasn’t around to see those changes himself, we’d be fighting over our grocery budget too.
We have his/hers/ours accounts. All money that comes into the household is treated as our money, there is no my money or his money (and I make more than he does). I manage our personal finances, I pay all the bills, put aside money for savings and we each get an allowance (the same amount) for day to day spending. We create an annual spending/saving plan at the beginning of the year and we sit down and review it so he knows how much it costs to run our house and our investment properties, etc.
We also live by rules, anything over $300 has to be discussed and we have to agree on it or we do not move forward with the purchase.
We talk about money quite a bit b/c I put quite a bit in savings that in our day to day life I don’t leave a whole lot of money sitting around available. We also don’t use credit cards. So sometimes Mr. Sam does come to me saying he needs money. 99% of the time its not a problem but I do think that the person paying the bills should have veto power b/c they are aware of what is coming up or what bills were just paid.
Allowance money can be spent as you see fit, except for the $300 rule, but if you run out you have to come see me and yes, I can see that being hard for him, but he’s used to it and recognizes the benefits of our system.
We’ve been working this system since 2007 and it generally works for us.
I’m just curious, but why do you apply the $300 rule to allowance money? My husband and I use the same system you do, except we don’t apply a spending limit to allowance. If the other person saves up their allowance to purchase a big ticket item, like a fancy camera or diamond earrings, why should the other person get to veto it? Sometimes we save up our personal money for a “luxury” item. The purpose of the allowance is so we can buy stuff without having to be accountable to the other person for every purchase. So it doesn’t matter if I may think its a waste to buy yet another hard drive for the computer rather than deleting old files. While he may think I shouldn’t buy expensive boots since I already own three pairs. It was our money to do with as we pleased, no discussion necessary. The only time a personal purchase really needs to be discussed is if there isn’t already place for it our house. So if its inexpensive but will take up a lot of realestate in the living room, then its up for discussion.
My husband and I have completely joint finances. I never consider any money made by either of us “his” or “mine.” It’s all “ours.” We write a budget on payday (the 1st of every month) and we both agree to it. Occasionally he will add something that he wants or I will add something that I want. Then I pay bills according to what we had already agreed to.
In eight years, we have never once had a single argument about money.
I got married a few weeks ago and I actually just wrote an article about how my girlfriend of 10 years (now wife) and I handle our finances.
I am actively saving for financial independence (FI) so that I can “retire” in my thirties but she plans to continue working for the foreseeable future so we have very different goals as far as money is concerned.
Therefore, we have decided to split all of our essential expenses 50/50 and we then use what is left over in any way that we please. Luckily, we both bring in similar amounts of money every month. If we didn’t, I would expect we would proportionally split the expenses, rather than split them 50/50.
I have created a spreadsheet that allows us to easily settle up our accounts at the end of the month and so far it has worked out great for us. We don’t have fights or disagreements about money, all of the bills get paid, and we are each free to pursue different personal financial goals.
This absolutely *nothing* to do with the actual financial issues here, more with your husband’s perspective.
We keep kosher in our house. We both agree that this is important to us, but I will readily admit to chafing at it sometimes. It’s not just the cost (although that doesn’t help), it’s just that it’s so much EASIER not to- we have to trek across town to a different grocery store, pick through inferior options, etc.
Snce i’m the one who does most of the cooking and cares deeply about variety and taste, I often find myself gazing wistfully at the meat counter at the local grocery store, the ready-made sausages, the burger packages, the gorgeous-looking steaks. If I want decent kosher sausages in this town, I need to make them myself, and it’s a PITA.
Extrapolating from this, I wonder about your husband’s feelings on this. Aside from the cost, knowing that every meal needs to be vetted for its refined sugar content, corn syrup content, processed meat content, animal-health considerations, organic credentials, etc. and made from scratch when he’s not super-used to it has got to be at least a little bit overwhelming.
You live in Portland (I just got back from there) and there are definitely great convenience-like foods available there that may be in line with your food values. Maybe consider incorporating those into your life more often? So that every meal doesn’t feel like a battlefield or a challenge to be overcome?
We’ve been married for over 35 years. We have joint checking and retirement accounts and separate accounts for what we want to spend on individual hobbies, food, entertainment, vehicles, etc.
The joint checking is for household and utilities.
Over the years, his career has been up and down as has mine. Now his career is up and he’s paying the majority. If the economy ever heats up again, I’ll take over the majority of the bills.
DH & I are authorized signors on each other’s accounts, but we each deposit our own income into our own accounts.
Each of us makes enough now to cover all the necessary living expenses if that were to be necessary.
Our current arrangement is that he covers rent and a couple other “hard” expenses; I cover insurance, food, and a couple additional “hard” expenses. His overage goes to his debt repayment and his quarterly taxes. My overage goes to debt repayment (only for one more month!) and into savings.
This arrangement will likely persist since I am the better saver of the two of us. I think that he will become a better saver once he sees our balance start to climb … it will activate his competitive gene.
We don’t give each other allowances or budgets. At 46 and 52 and having had many money talks over 14 years of cohabitation & marriage, we are pretty clear that we both want the same things in the long term.
Before you can set up a family budget– joint account or no joint account– you have to have some sort of shared, written-down-and-agreed-on goal set and value set.
The way you write about this, it sounds like the budgetting is not being done that way and the two of you have tried to avoid conflict by not really having a budget for certain things.
You need to agree on whether emergency fund or debt repayment is the highest priority, and how much goes to what; you need to come to some negotiated budget number for food. That may mean making some compromises on both your sides, and making long term goals: like, when we get x paid off, we can put this much more in the food budget to cover organic meat– and until then, when you’re at home with the kids, you either buy lesser quality meat or less meat and stretch it. You may want to consider putting x amount in the food budget each month for ‘food storage’ (i.e., either foods you can freeze/can or bulk purchases).
In our non-traditional family in which at least 2 of us have very different financial values and ideas about what is worth spending money on, this is something we keep having to have discussions about. Food in particular is the bane of our budget, so I know a lot about this. You may want to use the envelope method– setting aside y amount each week in cash for groceries, and when that money runs out, wait for the next week to buy stuff.
I do not believe your disagreement is over money OR stress. I believe it is over power.
I also do not think you can wait a year to start working on it. Save Skyping for lovey dovey talk and start working on a joint budget by email.
Seriously, this can be done.
I don’t usually comment, but this article and the host of comments left it wide open. I can understand picking/choosing organic, particularly those on the “dirty dozen” with high levels of pesticides. But it seems you have narrowed your fighting over money to a quid pro quo situation. Keeping score, garnering power over one another, etc is not a partnership, but rather a competition. You need to fix that aspect and truly become partners before anything else gets resolved. Set up the bills to be automatically paid, money set aside for household expenses (he isn’t here right now so you are making those decisions) but you must live within your means. While he may feel he is more in control for providing for his family, perhaps the stress is also adding to this. I know you want to work on freelance, but perhaps you can think more outside the box and supplement income. Wouldn’t he be surprised if you did that and were able to show you put a few hundred dollars towards an emergency fund. Right now you are looking solely on him which is a huge burden.
This made me unexpectedly angry. I would resent this system a hell of a lot (he’s setting the budget? hello?). I admire your grace in dealing with it.
This was a very good read, although it was a bit painful at times. I’m a big believer in how a couple handles finances being a direct reflection of their relationship.
My husband and I combine our finances. The bulk of our money is earned by him while I am the primary parent and household manager. I pay all the bills and figure out how much to put into savings each month. We’re fortunate that we’re on the same page with our overall picture – first we got out of debt before building up a tidy sized emergency savings. Now we focus on saving for specific goals, like a new car.
Because we don’t really have individual hobbies outside our home and family, we just do one combined adult allowanoce each month. From this pool, we pay for the kids’ class trips, haircuts, eating out and any other expenses not in the regular budget. For larger unexpected expenses, we agree to hold off slightly on savings for a month (or more). For instance, we’re hosting a large family party next month – that money won’t come out of our allowance, one or more of our savings goals will take small hits.
I should add we picked up two habits early in the poor days of our marriage – the first was a single ATM card. With each of us having access to the checking account, I was bouncing too many checks, including one to my husband’s high school reunion. Once we cut back to one ATM card, we realized it was probably better to keep the card in a drawer in the kitchen and just use cash for those small expenses that come up every day. To this day, we call that adult allowance our “snickers bar money”. When the money runs out, no snickers bars for us.
Honey,
This aint about your budget or your food. This is all about the unbelievable stress you are both under. It really is. I suggest you stop discussing budget stuff with the hubby. Instead, spend whatever time you get to speak to him telling him how proud you are of him and how much you love him and how great the kids are doing, etc.
You guys start giving each other props (and yes you can ignore the budget discussions until he gets back home) and you’re going to find yourselves back where you started – in love. Let the rest of it ride until you are better situated to deal with it.
I agree with Jim, but I’ll add that I think having to ask him for money or handle bills that you’re not supposed to be responsible for paying just adds extra points of conflict.
Because these kinds of conflicts are about values and feelings, but we mentally rehash them every time we have to take an action. So reducing the number of actions should reduce the levels of emotion. You have to figure out how to do it – by making the bills automated? or paying bills that come to you yourself but from the bill-paying account? or working out a bigger chunk of budget for groceries by carving it out of some other part of the budget, even if it’s your gas or yoga money until he comes home and you can work out a mutually agreeable budget?)
The first time I was a stay at home mom, I had access to two of three accounts: mine, and ours. But my partner didn’t change how much he put into the “ours” account to make up for me not working. He just let money pile up in his account, and I had to ask him to transfer. If he thought it was important, he’d pay the bill himself. And he’d “forget” to change how much was available to me. And we’d fight. And he’d promise to do it but “not have time”. I spent down all my savings and then gave up and went back to work – at which point I didn’t even have lunch money in the weeks before my first paycheck, and we had a MONSTER fight, and he promptly remembered to fix his deposits so he automatically put more money in the joint account.
At the time I thought it was the volume of the fight and the fact that, with a job, he was a little afraid I’d leave. But later, when things were calmer, we discussed it with a therapist. It turned out it wasn’t me spending the money that really bothered him (even though we famously had an argument in front of others about whether or not it was rational for a toddler to have 2 pairs of shoes instead of one)- it was having to transfer it out of his account, which somehow triggered all the anxieties he ever had about money and parenthood and family and responsibility and everything. Taking action to put less money in his savings account terrified him – but once he did it, the ongoing automatic shift didn’t bother him at all. Still doesn’t, and the discrepancy is way, way more this time around.
Rosa, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. it’s the transferring money to me that’s the trigger. If it’s for the kids (birthday presents, for instance) or a specific use (new running shoes!) he’s pleased and proud. If it’s for debt payments or groceries and babysitting, it’s painful. We’re in an o.k. place about it now, but I’ll be happy when I get the freelancing to the point where I can do all of this, and he can just do the bills and save.
and thanks for that story. I can visualize that fight over the toddler shoes. it might work great in fiction 🙂
It is a classic story among our friends, still. “What’s the baby need another pair of shoes for? He just learned to walk!”
I wonder, if you’re trying to get a month ahead so you have some padding for your freelance income, if he’d be willing to “loan” your spending money account an extra month’s expenses that you can “pay back” into the big account over a year or something?
Also I’m with whoever said that if you’re putting your freelance overage into debt payment in good months, you should put it in the spending money account instead, to use in bad months. The classic version of this is the stay at home wife hiding any grocery savings in a teapot for a rainy day – my mom used to clip coupons and grow her own food, and put whatever she saved into a stock account. She ended up pretty rich compared to her lifetime income.
We have had a joint account since we were married 8 yrs ago. But when we were both working we both also had personal spending bank accounts that we auto funded each pay period. This was what some would call blow money. We could waste it on coffee every day or save it up for something big. Now I don’t work so my personal expenses come out of the joint acct (I don’t have a lot these days) and my personal acct turned into a travel fund. It just saves us little squabbles about how much we spend on little things. He makes the money and I do the rest. I need to get a little tighter with the budget but I too will not sacrifice our food budget – which usually runs around $1000 a month for two adults, a 5 yr old and a 3 yr old. Joint accounts just seem so much easier in the long run.
I was married for 22 years and rarely had an honest conversation about money with my man. He hated talking numbers. We had spearate accounts and I paid the bills and he “paid” the mortgage…that I later discovered was in arrears. Money, marriage and men are a heady mix….I’ve never found the correct formula or balance yet so am a happy singleton – I never argue with myself and it’s bliss!
Sarah, I think you need to personally make more money.
I know, it probably sounds harsh, but as one of the (rather snarky) comments earlier said “I have yet to hear a Sarah Gilbert post that didn’t mention organic food…” – you also frequently mention your previous breadwinner status.
Are you sure that you’re completely comfortable in a role where you are earning much less than you once had the potential to? Obviously you’re doing a great job with your kids, and really is any job more important? But I’m not convinced that you’re valuing the work that you are doing now vs. the money-making-aspect of the work that you used to do.
I don’t know, just a bit of unsolicited analysis and something to think on 🙂
The only thing this post (and the resulting comments) did to me is make me REALLY want a good, juicy nectarine. 🙂
Where I come from (very close to Somalia), joint accounts for married couples are rare, not even encouraged. Credit cards debts are also not common as people generally have a phobia for them. Bank loans on the other hand are very common.
In the urban setting, most couples work full-time and agree on who pays for what. I know this arrangement does not encourage accountability or transparency and carries its share of financial disagreements.
Debt is shared.
I’d like to chime in with another vote for personal allowances. My husband and I have $100/month each – no explanations required. (interesting note though – I keep the books, and he asks me “how much do I have left?” so he knows if he can afford something). Other than this, everything we have is merged completely, and we decide together on pretty much everything.
He spends his allowance on video games and movies (no more “what? $70 for a GAME?” discussions) … I spend less than $10/month of mine, and save the rest, and then splurge on things like a woodburning fireplace, guilt-free. We each get what’s important to us, while meeting our shared goals etc.
Works for us 🙂
Hi,
We run our business so money is not steady like full time work. The way we do is we set budget each week.
– Household expense (everything…food, insurance, car payment, cable, eat out, etc)
– Tax part
Then the rest will go to our online saving account. After the cash flow night, the next day i will transfer each budget to each bank account online. It is easy and convenient.
Weekly budget set aside is working very well for us. It helps you to be able to see your cash flow are and make you feel look forward to each week. Also can give you some ideas of you can afford to buy something in that week or not base on your money available in the budget of each account. Help you stay with the reality !
AJ
My husband and I still maintain separate accounts. We got married about a year ago but chose not to combine accounts, because the system we use works for us. We split most everything 50/50 aside from personal indulgences and things like gas and medications, which we each pay for ourselves. I pay the bills, do the grocery shopping, put money into savings, and keep a running tally of his half. He hands me a check twice a month to cover his half.
The only issue is a relatively small one. Because I pay for everything, and because he makes more than I do, even after I’ve got his half of things for the month I really don’t have a lot leftovers for my own personal spending or unexpected large purchases, and he does. But it’s not a huge issue, and we’ve found other ways to balance it, like him paying for a big trip to Lowe’s, for example. Plus, he has often saved up his extra money to spend on shared things like the down payment on our new car, home repairs, etc.
It seems to work for us, and we’ve been together 6+ years. Joining our accounts at this point would change the whole system and be confusing. He does plan to switch to my credit union soon, though, so transferring money will be much easier.
I didn’t read though all the comments so excuse me if someone already said this.
A possible solution for the food situation could be to agree on a minimum amount of food budget each month that the “normal” food would cost then any organic fancy food above that would be covered by your freelancing job?
Finances are tough and the relationship around finances within a couple always seem to be evolving.
I am newly married and my wife and I have a “Hybrid system” I guess you could say. We each have our own accounts for which our paychecks go and we each have our own savings. Then we also have a join checking account and a joint savings account. The joint checking is used for paying all the bills and such. We also tabulate all joint expenses (groceries, some transportation, dining out, etc…) and split the total and each pay half. The joint savings is currently used to be saving for a new house. We each contribute a set amount each month. After the house is bought it will be used as a more of a travel fund.
Luckily neither of us are crazy spenders. So we do save, and each of us have a minimum we maintain for an emergency fund.
Finances are going to be different for everyone. To bad that the authors situation was so stressful. I don’t think any family member should feel guilty about trying to buy food, especially when the money is available.
I’m just going to say that I’m humored,after all of comments berating buying a box of nectarines, the post from today (10July) talks about going to local farms and picking up amazing fresh produce as a way to make the most of your summer. $45 for a box of nectarines to enjoy and preserve for the next year is nothing in my book. But I do live in Oregon and can find farms for just about any favorite fruit within a short drive. I just spent a small fortune on blueberries today!
The cost for fresh produce may not be anything in your book but when you’re trying to pay off debt you should curb spending any way possible.
Since I’m trying to pay off debt going out and spending $45 on anything is out of the question. Once I’m debt free, sure I’ll go out with the best of them and buy what I want and can afford. If my fiancee did the same thing while asking me to scrimp and save I’d be unhappy too.
If that humor’s you well…interesting is all I can say.
Okay, this bothered me all last night and I just figured out why: “going out and spending $45 on anything is out of the question” is just not true. I mean it. I had a year with a $50/mo grocery budget for 2+ people (we dumpster dived) but we were STILL spending more than $50 at a time on things – gasoline, car insurance, rent, health insurance, urgent care copay, bus passes. Even new clothes for a family wedding.
It’s not that there isn’t money for anything at all, it’s about prioritization. It’s fine for you to not prioritize fruit. It’s not fine to pretend that only your priorities are real and other people’s are stupid.
When I was living that close to the edge, I chose not to replace a car that got totalled – took the cash from the insurance agency and used it as my emergency fund, and bussed or walked to work (yeah, walked. Because I was saving up for a bicycle.) That totally turned me into an advocate for not owning a car if car repairs will wipe out your emergency fund. I’ve shared that perspective (and bike fixing help, and bike parts) with a lot of friends and coworkers over the years. But I still don’t jump into their discussions of budgeting and family arguments to say “there’s no reason to spend $150/mo on anything! Sell your car until you’re out of debt!” Because different people have different priorities.
Lots of parents share the priority of feeding their kids fresh fruit, it’s not a minority position. Further, buying in bulk (which is what this was) is a fairly well known way to save money over the long run. Being so dismissive of other people’s priorities is judgemental, not helpful, and if you carry it into your personal relationships you’re going to have exactly the arguments the writer is having with her husband.
I mean, really. You don’t spend $45 on ANYTHING? What are you wearing today, sackcloth?
You took something I said and then paraphrased it in the worst way possible. You left off the first part, “Since I’m trying to pay off debt” as in me singular and not Sarah, spending $45 on anything IS out of the question since I’m trying to pay off debt. So for me it is true and is the way I chose to live, for now. If someone else wants to do that it’s their call so I’m not trying to tell anyone how to live there life.
As for clothes I budget each month for clothes and then go out and buy what I need after the season is over and the clothes have become cheaper. Then I wear the heck out of them so I’m not spending $45 on clothes a month. I don’t have any kids so buying in bulk means a lot of things go to waste. When my fiancee and I get married and hopefully have kids buying in bulk will probably start to make sense. By then I’m putting myself through the ringer so my then wife and I won’t have to have discussions about money because hopefully we’ll have more than enough (hey a guy can wish). I think the thing you did was take my statements, extrapolate them out to an entire family and then apply your logic when they’re two entirely separate things. I’m currently engaged and doing everything personally I can to pay off every stitch of debt I personally have so not to bring it to the couples debt.
That’s awesome that you bike it to work and I’m guessing elsewhere. It’s a great way to save money by not having car expenses, buying gas, etc AND you get a free work out. If it wasn’t 12 miles of heavy traffic for me to work I’d probably do that too. There’s that whole sweating thing that’d probably make me unpopular at work though. 😉
Thanks for the compliments, and seriously, you don’t have to defend your car or whatever – whatever you think is highest priority, is highest priority for you. But I didn’t paraphrase anything. I took exactly what you said, which was specifically referring to the original poster, who is also paying off debt but who does have kids to feed.
The truth is, you do spend $45 on things. Everyone does. We live in an expensive world. You may not spend $45 on any one thing (though if you do have a car, I’d guess your insurance costs are at least $45/mo – we have a car these days, and it’s more than that. That’s why I used it as an example.) You get to decide what to spend it on, and how many other things than debt are priorities for you. The only difference between you and Sierra is that she *does* have to defend her choices to her husband, and make compromises, and you don’t have to do that because you’re single.
My husband and I have had a joint bank account since getting married, for almost 10 years. The thing we found that works best is what we call a “slush fund”. Each month we each get a set amount of money ($50 with our current budget) to spend how we like and the other can’t say a word about it. If we want to save that 50 dollars month after month to buy something big then that’s how we do it. My account is literally an envelope of cash while his is an actual bank account. It works really well.
For 7 years together we’ve just added a joint checking account to previous personal accounts. We each transfer in money to cover joint expenses such as groceries, mortgage, utilities and restaurants. Joint expenses split 50-50. I am a methodical budgeter so i track every expense and put money in monthly. He is allergic to paperwork and puts a random large amount in every few months when he remembers, or i remind him. i manage all bill payment, I am happy with paperwork and he is miserable at it. We discuss larger joint purchases in advance, eg major home repair. This works fine.
He can roll his eyes at my discretionary spending (shoes, pets) as I can at his (guitars he never plays) but that’s the end of it, because as long as we each cover our half of joint expenses no one cares. If we were trying to manage from a single joint account, it would be disastrous due to opposite styles.
Even if we were more alike in handling money, i hope for the best and plan for the worst and so would never merge finances completely with anyone. I do not understand the single “ours” account, with allowances and so forth. Perhaps it is more applicable to disparate income levels and arrangements where one partner stays home. Definitely not useful to me.
Hi Sarah, I don’t have a solution to your situation. But what I see is that you are communicating, and respecting each other’s opinions. That is everything! I have confidence that you will work this out and be happy when he returns.
What to do with the money you both make is the hardest thing to deal with in marriage. I am a saver, hubby a spender. He used to get really defensive( like it was personal insult to him) wehn we talked about money. However, I found a way to communicate with him on money without him getting angry.
1)Learn how to talk calmly about money.
In a casual conversation,Sit down and talk about what future goals/dreams he wants like debt free retirement, early retirement,move somewhere warmer, pay for daughter’s wedding, etc. I found once I found out that my hubby wants to retire somewhere warmer(it’s cold in winter here), I was able to point out( when the next money talk came up) how much closer we are to that goal and if we continue to make good choices, we will reach that goal. Trust me, this works!!
2) Don’t overwhelm him/her with too much information.Know how much your partner can handle.
I pay all the bills and keep track of everything. I give him updates on our debt situation every few months but don’t bury him with stress because he can’t handle it–that is why I do the bills. I also tell him how much he needs to make periodically and if he makes more, he knows the rest is divided into extras and savings and that makes him feel good that he is contributing to fun things too. AND make sure if you are making progress, to tell him the good news(not just the bad)
3) reward yourselves for reaching small goals. If you wanted to save a certain amount of money, once you reach the goal, spend a little. Go to dinner or a night out with the family. You must reward yourself or saving can make anyone crazy.
Tina,
That is REALLY good advice. Been married for 32 years and your advice was exactly what worked for my wife when she tried to talk to me. I was/am the spender. When she didn’t suggest “what are you dreaming about” I just got very defensive and felt like she was really saying “you don’t make enough money” – which is a really bad message to convey. Sure hope everyone who reads your message heeds your advice. It works!
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