Household budgets: When one partner won’t budget

In my last article at Get Rich Slowly, I gave the background on my income and expenses. My husband’s income and expenses are a little more difficult to compile. For one, Jake left the life of a steady paycheck about a year ago in order to start his own business. This means that his income fluctuates, which of course we knew going in. It also means that the first few years he’s going to make much less than we hope he will eventually. We also knew that going in.
However, another major factor is that Jake’s idea of household budgeting is “make so much money it doesn’t matter what you spend because you can afford it all.” When he started working at The Big Firm right out of law school and was making $90,000 a year, this was something that was more or less possible, especially since he was working 80+ hours a week and didn’t accumulate vacation or sick time. He didn’t have time for anything really spend-y. However, even though he’s now living the entrepreneur’s life, he’s resistant to budgeting. Earlier this week I sent him J.D.’s article about how to budget for an irregular income, and his response was:
This assumes that I actually have a budget…which I do not. I just make however much money I happen to make and pay whatever bills happen to fall due. Perhaps it’s not the best system, but it’s worked well so far.
Related >> How to Budget for an Irregular Income
I suspect that it’s going to take a major crisis or two of his own making before he comes to view things differently. One of the things I’ve learned over the last six years is that he almost never agrees with me the moment when I propose something; however, six months to a year later he’ll suggest it like it was his own idea. Go figure.
Since there’s nothing I can do at this point to convince him without violating the tenets of how to talk to your partner about money, I’m willing to wait. And to keep our finances separate, at a minimum, until we’ve reached a point where we are more in sync.
Related >> How to Talk to Your Partner About Money
Even then, we may opt to continue to keep our finances separate. Interestingly, Jake grew up in a household where access to money was used as a weapon, and Jake is also the spender in our relationship. On the other hand, I don’t recall my parents ever having a single argument about money, and Jake referred to me yesterday as “the most frugal girl he’s ever dated.” In the meantime, though, since his situation does affect me and I have access to his Mint account, I have started compiling his data so it’s ready for him to work with when he comes on board.
Jake’s Irregular Expenses
Unless otherwise noted, the amount listed reflects just his share, even for things like auto insurance that will be joint going forward, since we haven’t combined finances yet. For some categories — like auto expenses, gifts, and healthcare — I’m assuming his costs are about the same as mine until I have data suggesting otherwise. These are annual numbers.
- Auto insurance: $840. This is the annual total; he pays $420 every six months in January and July. Similarly, in my recent post when I said my auto insurance was $500, that was also the annual total. I pay about $250 every six months.
- Auto expenses (repair/maintenance): $250
- Auto registration: $250. Quite a bit more than mine, since his car is 8 years newer (and also much nicer)
- Gifts: $1000
- Health care (copays, etc): $500. Numerous people said my $1000/year estimate was high, and when I double-checked, I realized that I’d double-counted my massage costs in both the irregular expenses category and the recurring monthly category. This means my actual irregular medical expenses last year were closer to $230. However, I think it’s best to estimate high in this category, and I know Jake has more prescriptions than I do.
- Vet expenses (pets): $2300. As noted in my previous breakdown, he would have paid half of this. All three of our pets had dentals last year, and one of the cats had an extraction while the other had some medical issues that had to be resolved before she could go under anesthesia. This category also includes grooming for the dog (a poodle), which runs about $50 per grooming.
- Mensa annual dues: $60
- Total: $4050
I am sure there are expenses I am missing, and will be filling in this category over time. For example, he recently spent $437.36 on his 30,000 mile check-up, so he’s over my initial estimate. However, not only should he not spend any more this year (knock on wood), I believe that’s the first major repair/maintenance since he bought the car in 2008. And, since he is only driving an average of 7,500 miles/year (and that average should be dropping even more now that he works from home), we fall into the category of “gentle drivers” and these costs should stay relatively low.
Jake’s Regular Expenses
Like the irregular expenses, the amounts listed below reflect only his share for things, even if they are a joint expense. Accordingly, the pet, grocery, Netflix, internet, rent, satellite cable, renters’ insurance, and electricity categories should be doubled if you want to get an idea of our joint/mutual costs. Please also note I solicited more information about his credit cards and have updated the information that originally appeared here. For his payments, however, I am going by what he has paid historically, not what the minimum payment actually is. These are monthly numbers.
- Gas, auto: $55
- Pet expenses: $50
- Grocery/household: $300
- Cell phone: $135 (Note: Jake uses his cell phone for the business, too, though I’m not sure if or how he separates it from his personal use.)
- Drycleaner: $40
- Netflix: $8
- Internet: $32.50
- Satellite cable: $37
- Renters’ insurance: $9
- Electricity: fluctuates throughout the year, in summer $100
- Withdrawal/cash: unknown, I suspect it varies widely
- Charity: $10 (Humane Society)
- Haircuts: $18
- Rent: $488
- Student loan 1: $180
- Student loan 2: $70
- Student loan 3: $176
- Student loan 4: $112
- Auto loan: $300
- Credit Card 1 ($12,697.64 @ 4.99% for life): $400
- Credit Card 2 ($2,202.87 @ 7.5% variable): $200. This is the one in my name.
- Credit Card 3 ($2,648.33 @ 3.99% for life): $200
- Credit Card 4 ($1,875 @ 0% until 3/6/13): $175. His share of the wedding expenses not covered in advance.
- Credit Card 5 ($8,175.51 @ 0% until 9/1/12): $125. A loan to the business to sign up for a year’s subscription to a client-referral service.
- Credit Card 6 ($1,350 @ 9.99%): $150. A loan to the business to cover his partner’s expenses when he was short.
- Total: $3,370.50
Jake’s Income
Here’s where it gets tricky. Since January he’s paid himself twice per month in amounts varying from $400 to $5,963.98. Based on his disbursements year-to-date, he can expect his gross salary for the year to be $47,577.42. On average, he’s grossing $3,659.80 per month.
On the surface, then, he’s making enough to pay his bills plus a little extra. However, I’m sure he’s spending it all (that is, I expect that eating out and miscellaneous purchases would take us to the limit of his gross salary). I guess this is what he means when he says “it’s worked well so far.” However, he hasn’t been paying quarterly estimated taxes. There are some structural changes to the business that took effect August 1st, and he’s been waiting for that to start his quarterly payments.
Based on my calculations (which I will freely admit are pure guesstimates based more or less on my own withholdings), he can expect to owe approximately $8,840 by the end of the year. This amount should include federal and state income tax, social security, and medicare. Based on his earnings to date, he should have $4,760 set aside for taxes as of this moment. Guess how much is in his savings account right now? $4,194.99. So he’s short of where he should be and since he had been thinking of that as his emergency fund, not his tax fund…well. You see the dilemma.
Where to Go From Here?
Regarding budgeting, my plan is to continue to suggest it and wait for him to catch on before deciding whether to combine finances. He’s never even calculated any of this himself, though I did share the projected tax information with him, which he appreciated. While he freely admits he has no idea when any specific bill is due and is always surprised when they arrive, he also doesn’t see any need to change the system when he’s never been late paying any bill and pays more than the minimum on all his credit cards.
On the positive side, his average disbursement to himself has doubled from about $1,000 to about $2,000, so his business is growing.
What would you do in my situation? As I mentioned in the comments of my previous post, I refuse to become The Girl Who Only Says No or The Girl Who Only Talks About Money, because that will only poison the well for every aspect of our relationship, not just our finances.
Become A Money Boss And Join 15,000 Others
Subscribe to the GRS Insider (FREE) and we’ll give you a copy of the Money Boss Manifesto (also FREE)
There are 331 comments to "Household budgets: When one partner won’t budget".
As much as a hate to say it if he runs his business the way he runs his personal account he is in for a load of trouble. You need to keep good records and have a budget for your business or else it has a very good chance of not succeeding. I worked for a CPA firm and see a lot of businesses die off because they simply don’t know what they bring in versus their expenses and are shocked to see that they’re actually losing money… Hopefully he sees the light soon and everything works out! Best of luck to you in getting him to see it!
Agreed. Its one thing to run your personal financial empire this way, another thing entirely when it’s also your livelihood you are piloting toward destruction.
All that debt and no money for taxes? Wow. His personal philosophy of ‘Deal with it when it comes. No big’ is going to bite him in the @$$. The questions are just when and wether you’re going to let it bite you too.
Yes, this. We have paid quarterly taxes for over a decade and you cannot underpay your quarterly taxes by more than $1K without incurring additional taxes/penalties.
It sounds like your husband really isn’t ready (emotionally or financially) to be self employed successfully. You need to address this NOW, or you are going to be looking at serious unhappiness down the road. I am surprised a license attorney would be so clueless about these issues and penalties. There are lots of place to take a “everything will work out” attitude…dealing with the IRS is not one of those places.
Also, $90K a year is definitely not “Big Law”, nor was it is salary that supported Jake’s spending “at the time”. You guys are swimming in debt (school and consumer) and the self deception in regards to your finances, on both of your parts, is huge.
At some point – both you and Jake need to realize that being able to pay your monthly nut is not being on top on your finances. There is a huge difference between looking at the overall cost as reasonable and justifying the monthly payment as reasonable. You need to really re-examine your viewpoint.
Good luck.
Yes, I was a first year associate at biglaw 12 years ago and made $155k. I’m at a small firm now and we start new associates at $150k. After school, I’m sure $90k felt like a huge amount of money, but it really is easy to spend. My wife makes more than that as a nurse. He needs a reality check.
$90K actually is pretty standard now for a non-specialist first-year associate. These two aren’t old enough, and Jake didn’t stay with the firm long enough, to garner much in the way of increases.
Cannot agree more that Jake thinking that kind of money was “big,” in view of the debt load, was purely delusional.
We’re in a second tier city and big law here is paying about 125K. There are also plenty of in-house lawyers making around that amount with far more years of experience. In-house you’re paying for a much nicer lifestyle — whereas going to big law, it’s agreed that you’ve sold them about 20 of your 24 hours a day.
12 years ago isn’t now!
I would only expect a lawyer specializing in tax law to know about quarterly payments and penalties…. Just because you’re a lawyer doesn’t mean you know everything. It really depends on what you specialize in…
Honey, your husband really needs to get himself to a CPA STAT!!!!!! Yes, it will cost him money upfront, but it will be money better spent working with a CPA to get himself set up to have the CPA do the monthly books and payroll than money spent on nasty IRS fees and penalties!!!! Or dealing with employees and suppliers angry about the bounced checks they got because the bookkeeping was a mess.
@Jen: I disagree. I expect a *business owner* to know about quarterly tax payments and IRS penalties. It’s a basic responsibility of owning your own business.
Cara’s right. Any business owner, even a small “one person business” owner knows about quarterly taxes and IRS penalties. And if they don’t, it only takes a couple years (if that!) for the IRS to notice the mistakes in their taxes, and TELL them what they’re doing wrong.
@Cara – I was responding specifically to someone who thought a lawyer should know all of this. However, they don’t teach you how to run a business in law school, and it’s probably why some law firms have a business manager to take care of the business side of things while the attorneys practice law. Ditto, I think, for doctors.
However, you are right – a business owner should know about this stuff. But, a lot of people start their own businesses without learning everything that is involved.
At the very least, a business owner should be smart enough to get help.
I have a JD and an MBA (and a Mensa membership, if it matters), and I volunteered to help my wife start her small business. It didn’t take long for me to realize that I didn’t know anything about the nuts and bolts of running a business. As such, I have a meeting with an accountant this morning.
I agree you can’t run a business without some planning. It isn’t a month to month thing. A client pays you $10K, you don’t actually have $10K to spend since you have to seperate that to taxes, costs, etc. to see what you are really making. Additionally, if you are charging a “going rate” you assumed is good, which may be fine initially, without decent records you won’t know if the $10K you charged your client is high, low, okay for either you or the client. This is particularly true if you are paying for outside help and their rates rise but you fail to compensate. Sure, you could push the envelope, and end up making plenty to live on, but you can’t make any real comparisons to determine if it makes sense to hire a partner, or close the business and take a job offer, etc. without knowing your income, costs, and taxes.
I’ve known three people who branched off and started their own professional businesses, and did fine, but in the end the bottom line is they were actually making less actual income working for themselves than they made working where they had been. Two decided to close shop and become employees again, and the third accepted it. But the point is they knew the choice they were making based on decent records.
I agree that he’s going to be in for a world of hurt. Part of the problem was there was actually a third partner for awhile who refused to let them file the firm’s taxes at all (I think because she hasn’t filed her own taxes). So the “structural changes” were removing her from the firm so they could do things right, but that process took a lot longer than they anticipated. I am nervous about what their accountant will say once he has the entire picture.
It just gets worse and worse.
Here we go again…..I have been trying to be a little more understanding toward Honey’s situation this time around but this is where I start getting annoyed.
Honey starts popping into the conversation with additional information and more excuses. People offer helpful advice and Honey tells us why that advice can’t work. I’m having Deja Vu!!!
Umm, this just seems to add more info, I don’t hear an excuse.
Read all of her comments and you will find plenty.
Good thing she’s gone. I have an ex who was one of 3 partners where one partner was like that, and that ties into the thing I wanted to say:
Since you’re married, your finances can’t ever really be that separate. So it is YOUR BUSINESS to make sure that he is not taking on personal debt or obligations as part of launching his business. I should have put my foot down when my ex wanted me to look over the books (he was contributing unpaid talent, not money – Mr. Shady was the money guy) and shady partner said no, it wasn’t a family issue, it was a business issue and I wasn’t part of the business.
I don’t know how it works in partnerships, but my ex was 1/3 owner of a c-corp that had awful bookkeeping problems (starting with one secretive partner who was doing something shady with the business and his personal taxes) that caused awful cash flow problems, and the other partners thought a good way to solve cash flow problems was to use personal credit cards & IOUs with suppliers. So when it all went bust, shady owner walked free and clear but the two well-meaning owners had debts that were their own personal problem when the company went bankrupt. I know other people this has happened to, because personal credit is so much easier to get than a regular business loan, especially in very small amounts. But it’s important that all the debt & assets be on the business’s books, to minimize risk.
So one lawyer can stop two other lawyers from obeying the law? Then how good can the two other lawyers be? We know that one of them can’t manage to fund his own $1500 expense account. This is ridiculous.
That’s what I was thinking, his personal finance issues are a serious problem, but I am way more concerned with how the busniness is run. Especially if he is propping up the business with personal loans on his credit card, plus loans to prop up his partner. And he hasn’t been paying quarterly taxes? Obviously I don’t have the details of the business finances, but I don’t see this ending well.
Especially as a lawyer…being sloppy is how people get suspended or disbarred.
Money is a difficult area for many couples so you do need to tread carefully. My husband also doesn’t like to budget. So I do it for us. I pay the bills, I determine the savings, etc. He just doesn’t want to do it, but he realizes that it needs to be done. I think your husband, if he’s honest with himself, knows that it needs to be done too.
I’ve actually been handling the bills since before we were married, only I didn’t really hit a groove until we were a few years into our marriage. Before that, we (mostly he) would run up credit card debt because we’d know we couldn’t afford something but buy it anyway. We didn’t ever fight about money, but bill collectors did call.
THe way we really hit our groove was to do one single adult allowance which we keep in a drawer in our kitchen. We can each spend whatever we want from that fund no questions asked. At first I was the only one who noticed the funds so I’d take care to do things like pack us both lunches if things were getting tight. However, as time went by, he began to respect the fund.
It’s worked quite well now for several years. I’m not a spendy person so I didn’t find myself resenting his larger share of the spending. I trusted that he was a good man and would eventually begin to see the wisdom of not spending past the allowance. And he did after a few months of me reporting back how much better we were doing financially.
I think our way might work for you Honey, but it’ll take some tongue holding on your part. He needs to feel like you’re a team in it together.
“This assumes that I actually have a budget…which I do not. I just make however much money I happen to make and pay whatever bills happen to fall due. Perhaps it’s not the best system, but it’s worked well so far.”
I highly doubt that someone who responded with the above statement would agree to get an allowance.
He personally has over a 100k of debt, six credit cards and no savings and thinks his system is working.
I don’t know about that. My husband came to our marriage with that sort of view (and it was true, he simply spent less than he earned and it did work well for him). However, we decided to at least start out with joint accounts for household expenses, and he pretty quickly realized that with different incomes and expenses that required more active budgeting. Now he budgets more and I budget less (you can’t plot and track every purchase obsessively on joint accounts if your partner doesn’t, it kind of turns you into a jerk). Our finances are mostly joint except for a few small individual categories, we trust each other, and it’s all good so far. Compromise is key I guess!
But, he is not spending less than he earns. He financed a college education, financed a wedding, financed his partner, financed a client referral service, had his girlfriend finance something for him ( credit card#2)…
He is not even close to living below or within his means. In this situation his “system” will never work.
I no longer remember the exact amount, but my husband brought well over 100k in student loans and credit card debt to our marriage – I know it was much closer to 200k. I do think the quote you’ve highlighted is the kind of thing he’d have said, but really, what he meant and felt was, “I’m overwhelmed.” And for us the fix was for me to just handle it. He’s not a stupid or selfish person and he really did want to be financially secure – he just couldn’t see how to go about it.
How long have you been married and how long did it take you to pay off 200k of student loan and credit card debt after you took over the finances?
What are some of the techniques you used to pay off your debt and raise five kids?
That is quit an accomplishment.
Yeah, mom of five! Submit a reader story, stat. You must have amazing knowledge to share!
@Maria and @Honey – we’ve been married 17 years and debt free except for mortgage about 9. How did we do it? I wasn’t familiar with the phrase debt snowball at the tme, but the debt snowball is basically what we did. There were so many separate smaller loans and credit cards. The first three years were definitely the hardest financially for us with year number two the most difficult (lots of medical bills and lost income).
I would say the biggest thing we did during the early years was not to increase our lifestyle. We didn’t have cable, our car was 15 years old, and too many other little things for me to remember. The other very fortunate thing for us was that our income steadily increased. The first couple of bills we paid off didn’t really give us breathing room, but they did stop us from incurring more late fees. One day about 4 or 5 years after we were married there was money for cable TV and other lifestyle upgrades.
I didn’t get us out of debt with five kids. We were only at two kids when we became debt free.
I’m also a terrible candidate for a reader story because although I got us out of debt, once we were debt free we just spent our overage (some of it good spending – we adopted kids, we bought cars with cash, but then there’s lots of frittering away that I can’t account for). It’s only the two years or so that I’ve been coming to this blog that I’m starting to really situate us well for the future.
If I could have those freewheeling debt free years of ours back, I would pay much better attention to where all our money was going. The only things we did right those years was to max our retirement and not get back into debt.
Mom of 5: you may not think you’re a good candidate for a story, but I got a lot out of your small version here. I appreciate (very much!) the fact that you aren’t perfect, that you didn’t do everything right and hop the PF train without ever looking back. When I read stories from people who “came to Jesus” as it were in regards to PF, it seems like most of them are, “I saw the Light, I immediately did everything right, and now I’m free, you can do it too but you have to immediately do everything right too or you failed.” It helps to read your story because it reminds me that even if I don’t have it perfect, I can still make it. Thanks.
Just making sure you did get his permission before publishing all this personal data?
That was my first thought too! Though perhaps agreeing to publish his data is a sign he’s open to advice?
I have to admit this post makes me a little uncomfortable. I enjoy the “help a reader” type posts – but “help a writer”? I do hope Honey gets some good tips, and I’m sure they’ll be useful to some readers.
agree, this definitely should have been a “help a reader”
Honey has written 4 articles (?) now and all have been asking for help. Nothing pertains to a situation where a writer is offering advice or knowledge to the readers.
I think it’s interesting. Frankly, there’s only so much advice a personal finance blog can get. At a certain point, the most interesting and educational thing is the intersection of finance with human fragility and irrationality (something we all have to deal with, no matter how rational we think we are). Not everything needs to be a didactic lesson; sometimes reading just about somebody else’s experience can clarify your own in a much more important way.
Honey doesn’t want help. She doesn’t take any advice offered.
I appreciate reading writer’s stories that ask for help because they [Honey in this case] can write and express themselves well. When Honey asks for advice, I sometimes feel like she’s asking for me (hey, I want to know that too!). Also, when I read the multitude of comments from the awesome reader base, I usually glean useful advice.
i don’t think it’s entirely fair to say that honey isn’t interested in taking any advice.
it appears that she is laying the groundwork for what will hopefully be the start of a well-documented, successful, albeit long, journey to becoming debt-free. she’s taken a few articles to outline where she and her husband are currently. i would imagine over the next few weeks we see articles about her starting a budget, prioritizing her expenses, what lifestyle changes she is making to free up more money to pay down her debts, and eventually the success of paying off the first credit card.
most people acknowledge that big changes don’t happen overnight; they are part of a long process. so to pile on her now and say she’s not making progress yet is a bit premature.
if, in a few months, there aren’t some significant changes, then it’s a different story.
This is a lesson for me in what NOT to do should I get remarried.
This makes me uncomfortable too. I hope that after these “what would you do in my situation?” posts that she starts writing about what’s she and her husband are actually doing.
I think you nailed it there 🙂 At first I kind of felt like this was the blog version of reality TV — someone being paid to air out their dirty laundry, so to speak. Then I sat back and really thought about what it would mean to put so much personal information out there and realized no amount of money could make me do that! Kudos to Honey — it takes a lot of guts!
I’m interested in seeing the direction her writing will take now that she’s laid the groundwork. If we GRS readers can help her with her journey, then all the better.
I hated the “help the writer” aspect at first, but it’s sort of become like a trainwreck I can’t look away from now. I do hope she has her husband’s permisission to disclose so much. I’m usually a “one family, onn pot of money” kind of person, but in this case, I think she shold keep her finances seperate.
Where it’s coming from, I think, is that reader’s have been requesting more writers that are “just starting” on the path to financial stability and success. This stops the site being written by a bunch of people who already know everything. 😉
Yes, he knows all about the article! He’s totally supportive of what I’m doing. Which makes me think, yes, a starting point. Part of him is open to change.
OK, that’s a relief. However, I am still stunned at the situation you are permitting yourself to be in. That said, try approaching him with a word other than “budget” such as maybe “spend plan”. For people (like my own husband) who views words like “budget” as paternalistic and controlling, a phrase like “spend plan” was more acceptable (even though it is basically the exact same thing…)
My husband also likes seeing the “middle line” of the spreadsheet (not the top/bottom line) which is basically money that he and I have, free of any obligations, that we can really spend as we choose. Some months, that line is smaller than other months (such as when the kids go back to school, and our grocery budget increases in order to pack lunches).
Generally speaking, though, as long as there is something over $200 on the middle-line, he is perfectly fine with the way I’m tracking/organizing things.
Good luck…
i think the phrase for a small business person is “cash flow management plan” (or projection but for too many people that’s like saying “daydream”)
That’s good. I hope that he is then listening to those who react with horror when they hear his it-all-comes-out-in-the-wash “strategy” of money management! Maybe your experience here can help him also.
Since I’m responding here, I’d also like to register that I’m really bothered by the fact that people are leaping right in and predicting that, because your husband currently sucks as a money manager (let’s admit it, he does), your marriage is doomed. Marriages are made of more than money; you guys are young and will change and grow; and, most importantly, your relationship is none of our damn business. Please go forth and enjoy being married to your flaky husband, if this is your heart’s desire. And then just keep plugging away at the budget thing.
I think she made her relationship our business when she voluntarily posted this article and voluntarily asked us for “relationship-affirming” financial advice. I’m not in Mensa or anything but I don’t see any other way to take that.
That is the first thing I thought as well. I am still trying to be on the same page as my significant other —- and man on man, I would need to ask first. 🙂
It is SO HARD when you aren’t on the same page — do you say something? do you not?
Man, it’s a battle.
I tried, I really did try to come up with something from experiences, education, etc that would offer some sort of concrete advise and I’ve got nothing. All I can come up with is a “defense” strategy.
If this is truly the man you want to spend the rest of your life with I guess just keep your finances separate, DO NOT incur ANY JOINT debt with him..NOTHING!( including a mortgage), keep paying down your debt. Save a SMALL amount for emergency.
I just do not see this marriage working out. If I were Honey, I would put ALL my extra money into paying off HER debt and not worry about saving too much. Since half of any assets she accumulates post marriage most likely could be lost in a divorce. Tell DH you will not be contributing to the cost of cable, satellite, internet, eating out,pet expenses or groceries above 150 a month. YOu just can’t afford it and if he wants to keep them he will have to pay the full amount.
Drop your Mensa dues, you said they were most likely for networking for your husbands new business. Let him pay is own dues and do his own networking. Good Luck.
I just noticed his credit card#2 was in your name….CLOSE THAT ACCOUNT IMMEDIATELY… Pay it off yourself if you have to.
Agree! Keep finances separate in every way possible until he comes around. If he comes around. You can love him but protect yourself at the same time.
Keeping finances separate is a common way of limiting liability, many business owners put the house in the name of the spouse for this reason. You guys don’t have a house, and law firms don’t usually have to worry as much about liability, but I would still keep things very separate as a defensive measure.
and speaking of liability … where the heck is Jake’s business insurance expense? If he doesn’t HAVE business insurance he needs it.
Because: he has terrible money problems and bad money habits, and those two things lead to impulsive behavior, which leads to business problems, which leads to work being done not to the client’s satisfaction, which leads to lawsuits. Jeez.
Pet peeve of mine: people who separately list their Mensa dues on their budgets, just call it annual dues/subscriptions, no one cares that you are a member. Similar pet peeve is describing student loan debt as “ivy league”.
All our student debt is “state U,” and while our Mensa membership won’t come up for renewal until April, I am thinking I don’t get utility out of it that’s comparable to what I pay in. I only joined in the first place because it was my mom’s lifelong wish to join, but we lived in a really rural area hundreds of miles from a testing location for many years and by the time we lived in a more urban area she literally couldn’t hold a pencil anymore. For me, it was a way of honoring her memory.
Oh, that’s really sweet, Honey… And a little sad. Perhaps, as a way to still honor your mother, you can donate a portion of what you’d pay to Mensa to a charity in her name? Did she have any special causes that she cared about, e.g., ASPCA, cancer research, etc.?
This is a good idea. I could investigate to see whether there are any charitable organizations funding research into the disease that killed her.
Honey, I can almost guarantee that there will be a charity that works on her disease, or on many diseases including hers. Donating or volunteering in her name would be a lovely thing to do. Look up the charity’s finances on http://www.guidestar.org/ (it’s free) to make sure they’re handling *their* finances to your satisfaction. Even $10 will help will help them, so don’t go overboard. Keep the donation low and offer to donate your time instead. You like to write – maybe you can edit their newsletter or help with grant applications. Maybe you have other skills they could use. I have worked in nonprofit for many years and I can tell you that a good volunteer is hard to find. Your time may even be valued more than your money, and you can put that money towards your debt.
And while I’m writing, I want to suggest that instead of asking your husband to budget, you instead talk about when you want to be debt-free, or when you want to buy a house, or some other big goal. Once you figure out that time horizon, then do the math backwards, and figure out that in order to reach your goal, you need to be paying $xxx towards your debt each month. Then, set up a recurring payment from your bank account for the debt (if this can’t be done, then open a new, separate bank account for debt repayment and funnel the money in there) and pay that out before paying for cable or groceries. After you set aside debt repayment money, then buy the necessities, and then you and he can spend whatever is leftover, which may not be much. A big advantage is that you can do something visual with this – plot a graph that shows your debt repayment schedule to reach your goal, and mark your progress on it. It will take some time, but as the months and years pass, you will literally be able to see that you’re on your way towards reaching your goal of being debt-free/buying a house/whatever.
Good luck!
So I looked this up. There was one 501(c)3 in the US devoted to her disease, but it was disbanded in 2005. The only other charities in existence are based in Australia (as there is a population there that has this dominantly-inherited disease). Those organizations, however, focus on improving the quality of life of those who have it, not on research (which is what I’d prefer to support).
So, no go on that one. It’s SUPER rare. Most doctors haven’t heard of it.
Honey, if you can’t find an organization devoted to that particular disease, here are a few other ideas:
1) Look for a rare diseases organization that includes that one. There are quite a few out there that focus on groups of rare diseases.
2) Look at related disease organizations to see if they are including it. For example, I know of a Multiple Sclerosis organization that does research into related diseases such as NMO as well, because the work is mutually beneficial to both communities. Contributions can be given to support just the NMO portion of the research.
3) Find a related disease organization and suggest that they incorporate this kind of work.
4) Contact medical practices that treat patients with this disease and ask them about current research and who you can support.
5) See if a university is doing research on that disease. If so, you can give a contribution that is directed at that particular research and by law (in the U.S.) they must spend it on that.
6) Start a separate bank account to save money towards this purpose. It might start small, but after a while, you could have enough to start a foundation and get others involved.
7) If you’re willing to make it public, considering announcing on GRS and everyplace else you write what the disease is. Eventually you’ll find others who have it and together you can find or start an organization.
This is just off the top of my head as someone who used to work in a disease research nonprofit, but I’m sure there’s a lot that I’m not thinking of at the moment.
Good luck!
And that’s another thing that’s missing here. Annual bar dues and CLE expenses.
This guy was NOT ready to start his own business.
See if DH can find some free CLEs (California offers a lot of free “bias” and “ethics” CLEs every month) or maybe he can start teaching some CLEs. I also look for “deals” (CLEs that are under $35 and only if I think the course will be really, really helpful for me in the area of law I practice). I’ve only spent $100 on 23 credits worth of CLEs this year by using these three methods.
According to the AZ Bar website:
How much credit do attorneys receive for teaching?
If the presentation is accompanied by original written materials prepared, or augmented – the speaker may earn teaching credit as follows:
For the original presentation: First hour of presentation x 6 = total credit hours
Additional hours of presentation x 2 = total credit hours.
If the presentation is not accompanied by original written materials, the speaker earns one credit hour for each hour of presentation.
http://www.azbar.org/cleandmcle/mcle/frequentlyaskedquestionsaboutmcleinarizona
What other business expenses does DH have for his business? Does he subscribe to Lexis or Westlaw? Make sure he’s keeping track of ALL of his business expenses so he can deduct them. Also, I REALLY hope your husband and his partner have organized their firm as a Professional Corp., S-Corp, LLC or ANY entity form that limits his personal liability.
Finally, see if you can get on a family plan for your cell phones. I’m on a Tmobile plan with a family member and get unlimited everything for $50/month. $135/month for a cell phone is beyond ridiculous.
I have loads of debt too (awful spending habits as an undergrad and then expensive law degree) so I get feeling soul-crushingly overwhelmed on a constant basis, but he is just making awful choices and there’s no excuse. I work long hours too and am seriously underpaid (such is the legal market right now) and, for me, that’s even more of a reason to change my habits now so that I stop bleeding money and alleviate some of the feelings stemming from my debt load.
His company (a PLLC) has been paying his bar dues. He hasn’t had to do CLE’s yet because you can carry forward if you go over, and he did so many CLE’s when he was at Big Horrible Firm just to get out of the office (and because they paid for them) that he’s good to go for now. In fact, he was going to do a CLE about a month ago because he thought he was short, but when he logged into the system he had more than enough. His company also pays for his malpractice insurance.
Teaching CLE’s is a good idea (I could suggest that he teach a CLE about “How To Create a Business Plan and Start a Boutique Firm” and then he’d have to do it!).
While everyone has to deal with their money in a way that makes sense for their family, I have never come across a family with children where the separate finances worked. So while this is working for you now, have you discussed how this will work if you have children, or someone loses a job, or becomes disabled?
My husband and I were not on the same page about money when we first got married 24 years ago. He came from a family who, while not rich, never had any lack. My family scrimped and saved and made do. It was hard for me to get him to understand delayed gratification and doing without. What finally worked for me was putting it in black and white. After seeing 2 years worth of ledgers (there were no excell spread sheets back then) it became a math problem and not a matter of trying to convince him that my way was better. Once he saw it on paper, he saw the light. At that point I handed the day to day bill paying over to him. Having to confront it on a regular basis helped keep the reality in front of him and we’ve been a great team ever since. I have full knowledge of all accounts, have 1/2 the burden in decision making on savings and investments, and mostly charged with staying within the household budget.
Another thing that worked for us early on: If you find that your financial “discussions” are getting a little too loud, we would have ‘board meetings’ in a public place over a cup of coffee. It kept our volume in check and kept a discussion from turning into a fight.
Been married 24 years and about 3 years ago we decided to open a 2nd checking account so that we (basically) have separate accounts. We found that it actually helps us meet all our financial goals more easily. We still pay all our bills out of the original account (mine) and he transfers a large amount into that each time he gets paid.
It’s made us more aware of what we have “left”. It has eliminated the chance for any surprises….for example I pay a large bill and he makes a larger than normal expenditure at the same time.
Our finances are combined, but we operate separately in regard to disposable income (all our savings and retirement come out off the top anyway). Neither of us uses credit cards.
I suppose that’s not really as “separate” as the name implies after all. 🙂
I agree, regular meetings are helpful. We met every month when we were killing our debt. With paper reports, treat it like a business.
Now we generally meet twice a year, but we talk regularly and I prepare a monthly report.
I would say that in most cases, combined finances are the way to go. However, separate accounts can work as well.
I’ve been married a little over 8 years and we’ve always had separate accounts. We both added each other to our accounts in case of emergency, but we otherwise run them like we did before. For my wife, she likes the feeling of independence and I respect that.
I believe that the reason it works for us is constant communication. Also, neither of us are big spenders and we have similar views on money. We just split the bills up and it’s just not a problem.
I like the idea of “board meetings” in a public place. Thanks!
Hi Honey!
My one piece of advice comes from some personal experience as the spouse of a new business owner. When my (now ex) husband started consulting on the side, he did not pay quarterly taxes and I could not convince him to. In addition to living outside of our means, and being unable to have good productive conversations about money, the taxes became a huge problem for us. When we first separated in late 2008, the tax bill was the most contentious item we had (I resented it) to discuss and in 2012 he is still making payments for a tax burden that began in the late 90’s/early 2000’s. The mediator asked me why I hadn’t filed taxes separately, and honestly the thought had never occurred to me then and I wish it had. Clearly, we had much bigger problems, but I do wish I had understood that I could have filed separately and not just gone along with his game plan, which was to do nothing and ignore the problem. As a result I was also doing nothing and it cost me financially and emotionally.
I now file the moment I get my w-2’s! I am also about 6 months from being debt free through following my own financial plan and staying focused on my own path. I have tons of regrets about the past and wish that I had done more thinking about my future from a standpoint of what was best for me, not from a place of fear of rocking the boat or simply engaging in the hard conversations.
Excellent point!
Effectively, there are two major reasons (and one minor) to file Married Filing Separately on the Federal Forms
1. You’re already going through a separation or divorce
2. You don’t like how your spouse handles their taxes and don’t want to be liable for it later.
(3. The minor reason: your incomes are so disparate that you may actually qualify for some tax break you wouldn’t otherwise receive jointly, though I think this is exceedingly rare and could disqualify you for other tax incentives.)
He needs to be earning $44,490 AFTER PAYING TAXES to pay all the liabilities as you have them listed there. I think you guys should be aware of this.
Thanks for the comment, Patti! I have gone back and forth on this. The problem is that you can only deduct student loan interest (which, incidentally, is an above-the-line deduction, which as I understand it means that you can take it in addition to the standard deduction even if you don’t itemize) if you file jointly. Since that is the bulk of our debt, it is in both of our financial best interest to file jointly so we can take the deduction, especially in the early years when our loan payments are almost 100% interest.
Yes– the ed interest is an issue with filing separately. However, if you file jointly and he sees the tax bill then it may help move things along. In my case, we didn’t file for years and we got killed in penalties and late fees. This is the cost of playing ostrich! If you file, then you can have a reckoning with the numbers.
Honey,
While the student loan interest deduction is not available if you do MFS and it is an ‘above the line’ deduction, you can only deduct $2500 in interest, which if you are in a 25% bracket, only saves you $625 in taxes, which is small potatoes compared to the tax hammer that you husband will be on the receiving end of soon. I would not let student loan interest sway you too hard when it comes to protecting yourself in this situation.
You didn’t marry Jake for money (it seems). So, while money’s important (and it is) it’s not the only issue in your relationship.
When you talk with him, it’s important not to harp on the one issue that’s not in line with your expectations. Be sure to talk about other things, the points of agreement. And be sure that affirmation is a healthy part of what you’re saying.
It’s easier for people to hear healthy criticism if it’s not the only thing being said, that’s all.
About him buying your idea six months later, I’m a male with lots of male friends and I hate to say this, but he’s not the only one. 😉 What’s most important: him coming around, or you getting the credit for the wisdom?
If it’s the former, you sound astute and wise, and it sounds like you formulated your own solution – best of luck to the two of you! 🙂
I feel that many folks commenting on this blog have direct or indirect personal experience with spendthrifts shafting a marriage, and I think that is where much of the concern I’m reading comes from (especially given the chosen quotes in the article, which makes alarms ring off with me and I’m guessing many others)
That said, I would like to offer, as mentioned above, a bit of encouragement on the positive side for, you see, I married someone who simply cannot and will not truly budget.
When I mention we need to look at the spending plan (or whatever the latest blog or book recommends I call it), her eyes roll, she finds excuses why we have to wait to discuss it later, she will even get all romantic to distract me (like I haven’t taken advantage of that fact on occasion, “hey baby, I’ve got a budget spreadsheet I need you to review!” :-).
If I do get her to sit down and discuss a spending plan, her eyes roll up into her head and it’s like talking to someone with their fingers in their ears going, “la, la, la, la…”
So I feel your pain, and concern.
Yet somehow we are still making it through many years of marriage, to include kids (now with some in college), a variety of serious family issues, and many of the things life can throw at you. So while we will never likely be where I will feel completely comfortable (being the miserly hoarder that I am), we’re primed to do just fine financially because we have been able to agree on many of the larger financial decisions together and after years and years of trying different things I think I’ve found some that work for us.
But I still break out the spreadsheet when I’m in the mood, and it still works. Viva Excel!
So back to the article. From what I can see despite the problems, it appears he’s committed to paying bills, not hiding issues, and working with you on major life decisions and purchases. There is a fair amount of good in there. As long as there is respect and trust you’ll have a foundation to work from. You’ll have to eventually decide what you can and can’t live with, but even in marriages where the finances are good, that’s an issue. Best of luck.
This comment is amazing.
Why doesn’t it surprise me that the comment you like most requires you to do nothing?
Why doesn’t it surprise me that Holly@ClubThrifty has yet another nasty, bullying, negative, kick-you-when-you’re-down comment? Aren’t you done yet? Or does it build you up to tear somebody else down?
And more important, why has GRS stopped editing comments from trolls?
Not a troll, Laura. I have read for years and only commented for a short time. If you want to listen to all of Honey’s BS and give her constructive criticism that she will ignore, then by all means…go for it. I personally think it’s a waste of everyone’s time.
The last time I checked I was free to say whatever I think. You are definitely free to disagree with me.
You are free to say whatever you think. It is the volume of comments you’ve made, almost all of which are nasty and negative, that pisses me off. It’s bullying, plain and simple.
Thank you for teaching me my lesson of the day: that it is better to be in financial debt but supportive of others who need support (which includes allowing them time to work through changes), than to be out of debt but somebody who makes repeated hurtful remarks designed to make their struggles even harder. Better to be broke than a bully.
That is a total joke.
During this conversation, Honey managed to imply that she is smarter than 98% of people that she meets and that they are too good to deal with “religious types.” She has insulted a lot of people, not just me.
I personally don’t feel sorry for her at this point. Furthermore, she has posted her entire life story on a blog. She had to have expected to get some comments that she wouldn’t like. I doubt she’s surprised at all and if she wasn’t strong enough to handle it she wouldn’t be posting anyways.
Your reply basically dismisses any self-examination on your part, justifies why you believe Honey “deserves” your bullying remarks, then states she should be able to take it if she isn’t a victim.
These are all things a bully does.
I call BS when I see it. If that makes me a bully, then so be it.
Instead of trying to control and censor other’s opinions, why don’t you focus your energy on giving this support of Honey’s situation like you mentioned.
I am an opinionated person but I don’t feel like people need to agree with me. The fact that you don’t doesn’t change my opinion on this end.
The problem is that the way in which you call what you perceive as BS is belittling and hurtful and yes, bullying. Plenty of other people have made posts calling what they perceive as BS without stooping that low.
You could focus your energies instead on providing Honey with support to help her with the changes she is struggling to make, or you can continue to make nasty and negative remarks that seem to make you feel better but do little to nothing to help. Just be clear to yourself as to what you are doing.
We do disagree and will continue to do so. My hope is that just as Honey will come around to thinking of her finances in a way that allows her to make positive change, you will eventually come around to thinking about the way you make posts and the language you choose to use to make positive change.
Personally, my money’s on Honey.
In my opinion, this was not bullying. I also found it telling that Honey reacted strongly only to comments that said she was doing fine. If she had also liked any of the comments that told her she was not fine, and why, then I would be happier with her POV. As it is, I was hoping to find more help from the article. When I found it was pleading for indulgence, I hoped to find help in the comment section. So I kept reading. Holly has offered cogent points, and others have too. I wish Honey all the best, but my wishing is likely to have the same effect as all wishing, including Honey’s. NONE!
Tough spot to be in. For starters, STICK WITH THE SEPARATE FINANCES. That’s the best idea you mentioned!! And it’s great to compile data so that when he comes around, you’re ready to talk. But. BUT! WHat if he never comes around? Then I dont’ know what to tell you, dude.
He has $29k in credit card debt according to your numbers. That won’t stay at close to 0% forever.
Was the credit card debt just regular spending or was this used to help start the business?
The $438/month in super cheap for $100k in student loans obligations. That’ll take you 25 years to pay off that debt – Ouch!
I don’t see an active plan to pay off these obligations quickly. That scares me and seems to be financial irresponsible which is probably indicative of his business practices as Lance pointed out.
It is fine for you guys to bring different strengths to the table, but refusing to count and manage his money when you are doing the work is unacceptable. Refusing to participate in managing a healthy financial life is childish, selfish and immature. You guys need some marriage counseling to work this out.
You guys are in some serious financial trouble and need to start acting like it. Danger! Danger!
P.S. I was in a similar situation – 150k in the hole and sinking – and my spouse refused to participate in our financial life. The marriage didn’t make it. #1 cause of divorce = finances.
Except where noted otherwise, his credit card debt was accumulated when he was in law school and not earning a salary. He had over $50K in credit card debt when he graduated, so you can see he’d paid off quite a bit of it until he borrowed to get his business off the ground.
While I think he could have done a lot of things differently, he has only borrowed to achieve specific objectives that we both think will pay off in the long run, and he has spent the majority of our relationship paying off debt rather than accumulating it.
He is absolutely accumulating debt.
In your “reckoning” article you list his (5) five credit cards with a total balance of 27,659.00 and then today you list his SIX credit cards with a total balance of $28,947.00…$1,288.00 added debt to be exact.
In the reckoning article I listed the sixth credit card as belonging to me (since it’s in my name); I listed it in this article about his expenses and income because he makes the payments, not me (since he transferred one of his balances to my card).
Hope this clarifies things! He’s paid off about half that balance from the original transfer and can’t use that card to charge things, since it’s not in his name.
Honey,
I highly recommend you start with the money makeover book for yourself. Then consider (no just do it), enrolling in financial peace University with your partner. It will change your lives and your marriage forever.
I am not affiliated with Dave Ramsey in anyway but a fan of his show, book, and methodology.
Obviously you have to do this with consent of your partner so try to make the case as just an experiment you will both try.
Good luck,
Scott
I agree. Maybe he would take financial advice from someone with such a good repuation more seriously.
It couldn’t hurt!
We have the TMM book, as well as a few others (Debt is Slavery and at least one more). He wouldn’t ever enroll in FPU because he is an “evangelical atheist” and I don’t think he could be civil to religious types. While I think some of Dave Ramsey’s financial concepts would make sense to him, the packaging would totally distract him from the message.
Honey,
My husband has checked out some Dave Ramsey stuff from the library before. I don’t think it was FPU-I think it was Total Money Makeover.
Although Dave Ramsey is Christian and the course is usually offered through local churches, the course itself has a fairly light touch on the religious aspects. There are some biblical quotes that emphasize the points (i.e. ‘the borrower is slave to the lender’), but otherwise is pretty well focused just on the financial aspects.
The courses allow you to to visit the 1st class of the course as a ‘free trial’, or to visit any 1 class for free as a guest of someone attending the course. It may be worth trying a free one to see if it is something he could tolerate.
“I don’t think he could be civil to religious types”
wow… it says something about someone when they cant be civil to people who think different from them.
Yup. Another great suggestion that is dismissed…this time due to intolerance.
Seriously. This guy sounds more and more like a winner.
I just re-read that part. He couldn’t be civil to religious types?
I am not particularly religious either but would be willing to get help from ANYONE who could help me if I were in the huge financial mess that he is in. I don’t know if this is accurate or not….but your description of him is making him sound like a huge overgrown narcissistic child.
I’m tired of all the excuses also. I wonder if anyone has kept tally of them in the last four articles.
Sometimes this sort of intolerance started with intolerance… There are some equally intolerant “Christians” out there who berate non-Christians, and/or constantly proselytize to the point that they are giving Christians as a whole a bad rep.
So, while his attitude is very, very unfortunate, I can see where he’s coming from. To many non-Christians the stereotype of church people who want nothing better than to save your soul any way they can because their Christian way is the ONLY way (and they would count other Christian denominations as being in the wrong) has some truth to it.
I know where he’s coming from because I had the same notion of Christians growing up. I’ve since learned that there are many different types of Christians, and I’ve tried, very hard, to disassociate being religious and church going with being religously bigoted and narrow minded. And I’ve noticed the same level of intolerance among the non-religious. So some of his attitude may be a fear that if he goes to one of those classes given by a church they’ll just try to convert him.
Jen from Boston,
I think you’ve totally missed the point in this thread. The point is not about intolerance. The point is that this couple is totally unwilling to seek help from sources that are proven to help those in their situation.
Try Dave Ramsey? Nope, too Christian. Try a written budget? Nope, I don’t like budgets. Try the envelope method? Nope, it kills too many trees.
Honey has repeatedly asked for helpful opinions and has found an excuse not to use each and every suggestion that would require action. It is completely frustrating and utterly ridiculous. In fact, I’m highly disappointed that a website with such a great reputation like Get Rich Slowly would publish this garbage in what seems like a blatant attempt to increase traffic.
@Greg, I’m confused how people could say I’m resisting change. Changes are in the works, and will be blogged about. It’s only been 2 weeks since I started working at GRS! I still have to to sort through all the advice, phase in the changes, and wait for the effects to reveal themselves. This process is going to take months , and of course since I will be Doing What Works For Me, it will be different from what others might choose 🙂
Dang… As a business owner, you certainly can’t be hostile to those that don’t have the same belief as you or you eliminate an enormous client base. People don’t like to pay people that are not civil to them.
While Total Money Makeover helped me in the beginning to assess things and make some initial changes, Elizabeth Warren’s All Your Worth, helped me when I needed to get back on track and is a major reason (other than GRS) why I have been successful achieving my personal finance goals. Totally secular approach, if you know Dave Ramsey won’t work for you.
Wow, good luck being a small business owner who “can’t be civil to religious types.” I’m sure that he will be very profitable when he starts insulting prospective clients.
I took a Dave Ramsey Financial Peace University class a few years ago and it was most helpful! I wish I had done it years ago!
The materials might be beneficial to you.
Best wishes!
My parents are in a similar situation. My father is a spender and my mom is a saver. My mother managed to have him debt free but it lasted 5 months he got back into debt fixing and inheritance he received. My father also thinks like your husband that as long as they make enough money to make ends meet it’s fine. No matter what you earn it’s how much you keep that matters.
It may look like you need marraige counseling, or is there someone in his life that he respects and listens to who can have chat with him? Maybe show him how serious this situation is otherwise he will continue on his destructive path. I hope he has his business account separate from his personal and on top that have another savings account for taxes. Hope it all works out.
2 very small cents here – Your husband doesn’t have the same concerns about your financial situation as you. He doesn’t care about his financial situation like you do. You seem convinced he will “get on the band wagon” and the language you write this article in is dripping with your intentions for his life. Your desires for him are understandable, but if it’s not his desire, it may cause you more stress than you already have to focus on what he’s not doing ‘right’. Plus you probably can’t change him, either through subtle or more blunt approaches.Further I am sensing the seeds of lots of relationship stress now and in the future as well due to this issue.
Does he begrudge you sharing his financial info to everyone on GRS? If not, I’d say that’s a big step on his part. Most people wouldn’t be so generous or revealing, so kudos to him.
So perhaps you should focus strictly on you? In the spirit of ‘be the change you want to see in the world’ then maybe you should boldly attack your debt and ask for his emotional support while you do what you need to do. That alone may go alot farther in helping him “see things differently” than constantly nagging, sending articles, displaying his monetary affairs for everyone to comment on.
Like other readers have mentioned, if this is a true sore point between you two (or if you’re really hung up on this and it’s affecting your relationship) perhaps talking it all over with a counselor would be beneficial? Who knows, it may be the best thing you’ll ever do for your relationship, and may be more important at the moment than getting him to change his mind about getting out of debt (yep, I just said that on a finance blog)!
I’ve had the most success with leading by positive example rather than trying to convince someone that smart financial planning is important. I graduated from school over 2 years ago and began immediately attacking my debt and avoiding letting my lifestyle inflate. It didn’t happen immediately, but I noticed my friends and fiance gradually start responding to the thrill I got when i paid off a loan or reached a milestone. This caused them to want to do more so THEY started the conversation with me about how to better for themselves. Make paying down your debt and saving responsibly your hobby and take joy in it. Its infectious.
The problem is, she isn’t worried about a friend or a sibling. This is her husband, and if the ship sinks she’s going down with it.
Lead by example is my current plan, yes. Our student debt is pretty comparable and when I met him I had about $20K in credit card debt, so if I show him what I can do on my pitiful salary, it will hopefully serve as a motivator for him.
REALLY tough spot to be in!
I get the feeling reading your second blog that he just doesn’t WANT to get it and doesn’t trust your judgement. I’m not saying that him trusting your judgement = having joint accounts. Him taking some of your advice and being OPEN to change = him trusting your judgement.
It’s fine, all be it more difficult, to keep separate finances. In our relationship, having his/mine/ours accounts, made me feel like we were less of a team.
For us it was a no brainer – both our mothers had handled the finances for our families though my father handled the books for his business (though, he is Mr Letter of the Law, filing taxes on time and keeping pristine books). However, early on we sat down and discussed what our goals were. Get out of debt? Able to pay cash for home renovations or a nice vacation? Save for our future children’s college? Retire comfortably? These goals keep changing, so we are always having that discussion.
This sounds like a relationship problem and not a money problem.
“This sounds like a relationship problem, not a money problem.”
Emily, you saved me a post saying the EXACT same thing.
This house of cards surrounded with smoke and mirrors can only stand for so long, and it looks like the IRS is going to be the Big Bad Wolf that blows the whole thing down. The IRS has a serious lack of compassion for people who do stupid things instead of paying their Uncle Sam!
An illness, unexpected pregnancy, or an injury are also life events that test a strong and financially sound marriage, which this sure does not look like to me.
Everything is NOT “working fine”. I don’t care if they go with Dave Ramsey Suzi Orman, or any other valid program, but if when my finances were about 25% as out of control as this in 1995, I got a bleeding ulcer with worry until we came up with a plan.
Emily, I agree with everything you wrote. Relationshipwise, this woman Honey seems to be more “mommy” than wife. One hint, I think you mean the word albeit, rather than the 3 words all be it. Like your point of view.
Story time.
You never know what kind of punch in the gut life event will come your way. Even in your 20s. At 25 years old, 8 months after graduating from dental school, I developed a medical condition that totally prevents me from working. It literally happened overnight. Good thing I had a strong private disability policy and I can cover monthly expenses. My husband and I had no credit card debt and enough excess from the disability policy that we could travel to experts out of state to get the best care. (Maybe I should submit this as a reader story…)
What if an illness happened, or a bad car accident? What if he can’t bring in an income for his business for a few months? Will his credit be shot? Will his business go under? What sort of financial protections does he have in place for his business that he has obviously worked so hard for?
Perhaps from the angle of “Darling I want your business to be successful. There are some simple changes we can make to get your business in a stronger position in case the unexpected happens. We can make small baby steps and do this together.” Or do a sports metaphor “baby you seem to be doing great offense with you business what sort of defense is in place.” Whatever works.
From my perspective those numbers scream alarm bells going off. Something needs to change.
Good luck. This is a toughie.
Your advice is good and I’d love to hear your story if you submitted it!
If your husband commits to not charging anything more on his credit cards, then his income/cashflow will impose certain budgeting automatically.
If he is making up for any negative cashflow by using credit cards, then I’m not sure what can be done.
Wow. I’ve always been a firm believer in joint finances and working as a team, possibly because once kids are introduced, it forces both parties to use their compromising skills. My significant other is a financial wreck, but thankfully he trusted me to take over with the family bills/budgeting. You mentioned a psychological aspect tied to your dear hubby’s reluctance to entrust you with the coffers, stemming from his parents and their relationship with money. My curiousity is piqued; is this something you’d be willing to write more about?
This. I’m still wading through all the comments and was looking for someone to mention Honey’s remark that Jake comes from a family where money was used as a weapon. Based on the limited info I have, my best guess is that Jake’s attitude in part may be from that experience: if he can spend what he wants when he wants, then he perceives money can’t be used against him.
Given this, Honey, if I were you I would suggest counseling to work through the differences. If you go that route, try a communication technique: I observe, I think/feel, I want, otherwise I’ll do X. For example, “These numbers suggest problems with balancing money and a difference in our beliefs. This worries me that our relationship won’t succeed. I want us to succeed in this marriage and in life, and to do so, we have to be on the same page about money. Given your background of X, I would like to go to counseling [not “try” counseling, just “go to” counseling]. If you refuse to go, I will [stay with you but respect you less, insist on paying taxes separately so I won’t share your trouble with the IRS, divorce you, refuse to go along with major purchases such as buying a house or having kids, whatever].”
Absolutely keep your finances separate. Do not get joint credit cards or loans. Focus on paying only your own stuff back for now. You may be married, but you are not yet in a partnership and you must protect yourself until the day comes when being in a partnership becomes more important to Jake than spending money his own way.
BTW, although I’m not atheist, I know people who can’t abide any package that has religious wrappings on it so I totally get his attitude. If he can’t go for Dave Ramsey, see if he’d be open to other books or blogs that aren’t Xtian. Have either of you read Jerrold Mundis’s book “How to Get Out of Debt, Stay Out of Debt, and Live Prosperously”? Not religious and highly recommended (although I don’t know if either of you are receptive to Debtors Anonymous).
Finally, Jake needs a business plan. Plain and simple. Regardless of what he thinks he needs for his personal finances, the #1 basic rule of anyone starting their own business is to have a business plan with budget. If you work with him on anything, work with him on that. But keep your finances separate.
Good luck!
That must be very frustrating! I don’t have any advice except to be an example for him (since your finances are seperate) and maybe he will see you making progress and want to do the same.
I am really happy to hear you can access his Mint account. This shows he is not trying to hide any details from Honey which is a great place to start.
Since you already seem to be doing a bit of work for him on the personal side, maybe it is time to ramp up the work you and he do together on the business? You can take over things like making sure the taxes get paid on time. I know this could be tricky to work together but if you are going to be up late over worrying about the business and your own finances anyway, might as well contribute your talents to help him succeed?
I had the same thought. Why don’t you take on the CFO position (even if it is unpaid)?
I don’t think I can provide any advice that’s both relationship-affirming and financially astute, because your posts make your husband (who refers to you as “a girl he’s dating?”) seem quite toxic, at least financially.
He has 6 credit cards and 4 student loans, and he’s making minimum payments. He’s gone from making $90,000 to (you hope!) $47,000 and hasn’t changed his spending habits. He refuses to make a budget, cut his spending, save money, or pay his taxes. And it sounds like he’s got YOU fearing that you’re the one who’s somehow going to destroy your relationship if you try to get him to budget?
I would recommend counselling (although frankly, I’m not sure how you’ll afford it). Comments on a blog are not going to solve your problems at this point.
He was always making around $48k. $90k at 80 hours a week is how that math works.
Face facts. This dude is financial Armageddon.
Thank you, I agree. This entire post just doesn’t sit well with me. The husband really isn’t on board, and doesn’t seem to want to change. This means Honey will be seen as cramping his style – even though she’s trying to save him from himself.
But that’s why she LOVES him!
Is it possible that he has undiagnosed ADHD? My husband and child both have it. Your husband’s behaviors sound similar.
Also, he needs to realize that he is not a wealthy lawyer. This is a trap many young lawyers fall into – they think because they are LAWYERS, they can spend like they’ve got it when they don’t. How do I know? I am a not-so-new lawyer who has seen it a lot.
We actually suspect he is somewhere on the autism spectrum. His dad has it, and Jake recognizes that a lot of his own behaviors are consistent with it. I’m not sure where that leaves us if it’s true.
Give me a break. He’s not autistic in the least. If you even had a clue about autism, you’d know that. He’s just blatantly irresponsible, both financially and emotionally.
Good luck.
Respectfully but totally disagree with you. There are many, many adults with Asperger’s and other mild forms of autism who aren’t diagnosed. The emphasis on diagnosing still tends to be on children when they display trouble coping in school. Adults who have AS or similar and who have trouble coping are usually labeled as blatantly irresponsible or worse.
I am not saying that this IS Jake’s issue, only that I cannot say that it’s not.
Agreed that there are many adults unknowingly on the autism spectrum. However, in this context it reads like another rationalization.
Actually, my husband was told by a psychiatrist that he may have Aspergers (this was a a youngish teen) his father had mental issues and more than one disorder, so this is not definite, but it is not out of the question either. He also has these kind of problems with money – don’t know if it actually is a symptom of that, though. We just have me take care of the money for the most part and I let him know if/when he can buy things – he doesn’t have any accounts of his own (other than student loan debts) because he would go beyond emptying them into incurring a number of overdraft fees ($30 each time convinced me he doesn’t need his own cars pretty quickly).
Yaaaawwwnnn. Honey, really, have you taken any advice offered here on GRS in regard to your prior questions to the readers? Or are ya just spillin’ it to collect the award for “Most Commented on Posts”. YOU’RE GOING TO CARRY THE HEAVY IN THIS RELATIONSHIP FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. If you want to do that, go ahead. It’s not about getting advice, it’s about accepting what you’ve already committed to.
The only advice you can get has been covered time and time again. Someone here needs a second job or your just going to have to keep racking it up and chipping away for the rest of your life.
Changes are in the works, but it’s meaningless to describe them until people know where we’re starting from, I think. This is only my second post as a staff writer, and it’s a story that can’t be told in a day 😉
So what you’re saying is…that this is all a prelude to a big conclusion? You’ve already “finished the book” or come to terms but you’re dragging us through the chapters? Isn’t that fraud? Wow! I’m out.
No, what I’m saying is that it took me 10 years to get in this situation, and while I have at least that long to go, it’s not a backstory that can be completed in one post.
Honey, I am really enjoying you posts.
First, I’m no sure JD and Kris are the best example since they ended up getting divorced.
Second, I feel your pain. I am married to Mr. Stubborn (also known as Mr. Sam). If I tell him to do something (and I should be known as Ms. Bossypants) he will dig his heels in, if I tell him to do something twice, he will do the opposite, and so on.
In our relationship, I am the spendthrift. But, Mr. Sam will spend as much money as is available without thought or planning. He has the same problem with cookies, I can eat one cookie a day, he will eat a whole bag in a day. Mr. Sam also is prone to not paying bills until he gets a pink envelope (that would be the third notice).
When we first moved in together (before marriage), I paid all the joint bills and my bills and he was responsible for his bills (which included student loans, car ins., credit cards etc.). We did a house acct and we each contributed a set amount to the household based on income. I contributed more because I made more.
After we got married, 2006, we undertook Dave Ramsey’s Total Money Makeover. We had, combined, $55,500 in debt (most of it was his, but since we were married, it was ours). We worked the debt snowball to kill the debt in just over a year.
We also cut up all our credit cards and we went to an allowance system, we each got the same amount to spend for every two weeks and when it was gone it was gone. There were tons of other steps along the way as well, spending plan, figuring out where our money was going by tracking every penny, etc.
Mr. Sam was resistant at first, but when I presented my plan to him, on paper with charts (which was his language) he could see that I wasn’t crazy.
We still, 5 years later, talk quite a bit about money. I don’t think it spoils the romance, rather he is happy, very happy to have no debt (except mortgages) and over time we have both settled into our finance rules and routine. It takes time and there were lots of arguments about it.
This is your husband, I wouldn’t be afraid to keep talking about this issue, until you hit on whatever is going to motivate him. He’s got to come to grips with what works for him, but you have to be a team to make progress on your debt and your mutual goals.
I’m really not a fan of separate finances, I just don’t understand how it works when you’ve got different levels of income (maybe it can work if you both earn about the same). I have a dear friend at work who keeps her finances separate from her husband, who earns much less than she does. At present he does not max out his tax advantaged retirement accounts because he doesn’t feel like he can do based on what he earns. Mr. Sam would have the same problem if we didn’t have joint finances. But it benefits both of us to put as much money into 401ks and IRAs now. I’m not sure what my friend is going to do, how are they going to retire if only one of them is putting money away for retirement.
Sam, I agree about JD and Kris, and I told him openly several YEARS ago that about 90% of the couples I know who did not combine finances by their fifth anniversary went on to divorce. I am sorry that I was correct.
It is usually a symptom of a couple not being able to communicate and work things out together (EXCEPTION: Second marriages when both have children and/or assets to manage).
Provocative stat. Do you have a reference?
95% of couples that divorced within 5 years ate chicken at least once a week.
Is this statistic true? Actually, it probably is. Does it mean that eating chicken will cause divorce. Most likely not.
Please provide references when spouting off statistics like this.
I don’t support her comment or her contention, but I do support actually reading something before responding negatively to it.
“about 90% of the couples I KNOW”
The most financially astute advice I can give to Honey is to keep her finances 100% separate. Everything, including getting a mortgage in her own name [he can sign a quit claim] and filing taxes separately. Do not enter into any joint debt or assets with him, ever.
I can’t give “relationship affirming” advice. [What does that even mean?!] He does not sound interested in even meeting Honey halfway or even entertaining her ideas. And that’s worrisome- because what else is he dismissing, ignoring and disrespecting?
Honey and Hubby need more help than comments on a blog can give. She doesn’t want to acknowledge that, however, so I reiterate my financial advice: Keep everything 100% separate and look after her own interests.
Agree, except the mortgage should be in his name and she signs a quit claim deed. she has way to much debt to add too.
Agree with all the readers who say KEEP YOUR FINANCES SEPARATE.
Also, working this through with a counselor or mediator is an excellent idea. This is a touchy subject, he’s clearly in a significant amount of denial, and he is going to have to make major changes in order to achieve any measure of security.
A counselor might also rejigger priorities a bit; at the moment, he’s got a $0 annual savings budget and a $120 annual charity budget which, forgive me, does not speak very well of his ability to allocate beyond the day-to-day.
Thanks for another honest post, Honey.
I’m sympathetic to your situation, but am definitely aghast at how your husband can think he’s doing okay when 53% of his monthly expenses are loan repayments.
The last credit card makes me wince, too. He took out a new line of credit at 10% to make a loan to his business partner, who couldn’t cover $1,350 worth of expenses?
Also, is he still charging things to these cards?
I agree with others that it’s too soon to combine your finances, not the least because I think the combined total of your debts seems suffocating. Better that you each individually tackle debts, get into better financial shape and habits, and then reassess.
But I wonder if it would be helpful for the two of you to prioritize your remaining wedding debt. I know it’s split between two cards, one for each of you; but it may be psychologically useful for the two of you to take on this relatively small debt together–and to share the satisfaction of paying it off together.
I also wonder about the loan to the business partner. Why didn’t the business partner open his own credit card?
“Love is all you need” is one of the biggest frauds perpetrated on the American public of the last 100 years. Marriage and family are as much business relationships as anything and it doesn’t really matter how much you love each other of you can’t afford to feed your kids. Love may be nessecary for a marriage to work, but it is not sufficient. You wouldn’t hire someone who was super nice and friendly if he couldn’t get the job done, so why would you marry someone with the same problem? Single people, take note – marriage is forever: through raising kids, buying houses, paying for weddings and college, growing old, retiring and dying. Think about these things before you say “I do”. But young people won’t listen – this is why they have arranged marriages in India (not that I’m saying that’s a good idea, either).
I can’t “thumbs up” this comment enough.
I also wish I would have been told that when I was younger. It would have saved me a world of hurt.
Better yet, don’t get married before the age of 30 or even 35.
Age and maturity often go hand-in-hand, but not nearly as often as people seem to think they do.
Ugh. I’ve tried really hard to read Honey’s posts with an open mind, but I read GRS to learn about personal finance, not to read about someone else’s train wreck. JD – I’m thrilled for you that you have made a ton of money off this blog, but I already see it going seriously down hill now that you’ve taken a step back.
I disagree. Seeing the perspective of people who are in financial despair helps me understand my own faults and affirm that my corrections are necessary / working / worthwhile.
Seeing constant success stories gets old.
During the trial period for new writers, there were several suggestions about wanting writers from different points in the process– just starting out, on the road to financial freedom, etc etc. I think many people will identify with Honey and enjoy reading about her challenges and successes.
Well Honey, I’m in a similar boat in that my husband wants to just make it all work out and doesn’t care so much about the day to day budget. Our big differences are we don’t have any credit card debt or student loans. But he says stuff like if we have to put a trip to Europe on a credit card that’s fine but we will be taking our kids to Europe before they are 18. I totally disagree and started a travel fund that I am slowly building up. Luckily I handle the finances but I feel like one arm is tied behind my back because I stay at home with the kids. I miss the income I used to contribute. I help by controlling my spending and packing meals for our day trips with the kids.
I agree to keep your finances separate for now. And you should focus on paying off YOUR debt. I hope he comes around and is more open to budgeting.
In the outlines of your and your husband’s expenses, I noticed that you mentioned healthcare expenses (copays etc), long-term care insurance, and massages (which you’ve corrected to be back under healthcare expenses). Nowhere do I see how much you are spending on actual healthcare insurance. That is a significant chunk of change (you are American, right?) that seems to be missing from the report.
I also really hope that you got his permission before you posted his (very personal, and in fact probably PII data) financial information. You mentioned in an earlier post, unless I’m mixing up writers, that he doesn’t read your blog posts.
Honey, this article is honest, interesting and will help others; thank you for sharing.
I was more like Jake, than you, until I remarried to a frugal man. I wanted to learn, from him, about handling finances more wisely than I had done previously. He has been a terrific mentor and we have prospered together.
In an earlier comment by Maria, she suggested sharing no financial burdens/contracts with him and I agree. If there are plans for you to marry, postpone them until he changes how he handles money, for the better. Combining finances with Jake will be problematic, as you know.
The only people that can really affirm your relationship are Jake and you. I do not mean to discourage you, in your partnership, but to encourage you to continue to recognize the real problems with Jake’s attitude towards spending.
I wish you both the best.
“if there are plans for [them] to marry”??
they are married, and they racked up a bunch of additional credit card debt to do it.
they are “keeping their finances separate,” but filing joint income taxes. i am certainly not an expert, but that seems a bit incongruous to me.
not to mix metaphors, but i think honey has hitched her wagon to a sinking ship – he started a business with a guy who not only can’t pay his half of the overhead but also apparently can’t get his own line of credit to handle the shortfall and another who seems to have kept the business from paying taxes for half the year because his own taxes are delinquent. he clearly can’t manage his personal finances, but thinks he can run his own business. he is $200k in debt but thinks it has “all worked out so far” because he can afford the minimum payments on his credit cards. he wants to grow a business, buy a house, and relocate to a different part of the country, without seeming to realize that not only are those goals not compatible with each other but they aren’t realistic for someone with $200k in debt who makes $50k/year. he apparently refuses to consider cancelling cable, trying to attend a successful program like FPU, or even think about reducing the food budget to something less than an astronomical $600/month for two people.
honey is in a pretty tough spot herself, but at least she has acknowledged the problem, is seeking advice, and starting to make some changes.
a year ago i would have strongly recommended pre-marital counseling so they would work out some of these issues, but since that ship has sailed, i think they need to get themselves to a marriage counselor and a financial planner ASAP. these two not only aren’t on the same page, i don’t think they are standing in the same bookstore.
a previous commenter said something to the effect that the saying “love is all you need” is a falacy, and i agree. i hope honey and jake can figure that out as well.
WHOOPS!
Kate, thanks for correcting me. I read it but it must not have computed.
I’m so sorry Honey for my interpretation of your relationship.
And Kate, you are correct, it does make a huge difference as to how all this affects Honey.
I blew it and I apologize.
Cancelling the Mensa membership would save you $60 ($5 per month). Not sure what tangible benefits it provides, but I could be wrong. Just a thought. Over 20 years, that’s over a thousand dollars.
As far as the budgeting thing goes, it seems that you are along for the ride. But you know what they say, if you don’t know where you are going, it doesn’t matter where you end up. If none of it matters, then it seems somewhat strange that you are tracking it. If you think he’s destined to out-earn his money habits, then why not let it go? Why obsess over it if you both think that the low earnings are just a temporary circumstance of him starting his own business? And if you don’t think he’s destined to out-earn his money habits, then it doesn’t matter how much he makes (or you make combined) in the long-term because bad habits can erase any amount of earnings.
In the outlines of your and your husband’s expenses, I noticed that you mentioned healthcare expenses (copays etc), long-term care insurance, and massages (which you’ve corrected to be back under healthcare expenses). Nowhere do I see how much you are spending on actual healthcare insurance. That is a significant chunk of change (you are American, right?) that seems to be missing from the report.
I also really hope that you got his permission before you posted his (very personal, and in fact probably PII data) financial information. You mentioned in an earlier post, unless I’m mixing up writers, that he doesn’t read your blog posts.
We are insured through my employer (they provide domestic partner benefits so this has been the case since he left his job). It is $55/paycheck and is excellent.
I am a bookkeeper for a small business so I have a few suggestions along that line. First does he have a professional accountant for his business? He should. He may owe income taxes at the end of the year, he will owe self employment taxes. He may also need a business license and owe property taxes. You have stated that his partner does not have a good work ethic and he has had to borrow money to cover overhead (which is pretty shocking since your husband is in no position to be a creditor). It might be wise to evaluate whether he needs a partner. Also is the client referral service paying off? Has he run any metrics on it? When you own your own business you really need to stay on top of it.
On another note you stated in an earlier post that he has expressed a desire to build his business, buy a house and move to another part of the country. Those aren’t compatible goals. Kristin may have a point about the ADHD. If your health insurance covers it you might consider a psychological screening. He can acquire tools and coping mechanisms to overcome some of the roadblocks.
Good Luck!
As someone else who has worked as a book keeper for several small businesses, I second having a good accountant. Also, are he and his partner’s actually taking salaries or are they taking money out in the form of loans from the business so that they don’t have to claim it as income and pay taxes and they have the loan as an asset to the business. I had several clients go out of business because they deluded themselves that they had a viable business b/c the loan made the business look like it was in the black, but they had no equity because they withdrew it all to pay personal expenses. Also, the IRS frowns on taking loans and not making payments to pay it back. There can be stiff penalties. According to accountants, I have worked with, the IRS flags loans not being paid back.
I’ll add my two cents with this comment, since they’re similar to what I was going to say anyhow.
Self employment taxes are different than regular income taxes. My husband started his own company about 9 months ago, so we’ve been learning a lot about the process. I know some of this will depend on how the company is set up and how he is paid, but if he is considered self employed, he will have to pay regular income taxes like you pay, PLUS whatever an employer would have to pay, like unemployment insurance, the full social security amount as well as state and federal taxes. For my husband, even though he had a pretty good idea going in what percentages they were all going to be, it has been a bit of a shock just how high it all is.
That said, make sure to save enough to pay those bills when they come in, because the penalties of not paying the government what they’re owed are big.
Also, my husband has adult ADD. He has been on medication for it for the past 10 years and it has made a huge difference for him. 10 years ago, there is no way he could have handled the details of running his own company without running it into the ground. Today, he manages it well. So, it can be done and managed. Medical help can make a huge difference, if it is necessary.
You are worried about becoming “The Girl Who Only Says No or The Girl Who Only Talks About Money” but you’re on your way to becoming “The Tired Woman That Cleans Up Her Husband’s Messes and Pays Her Husband’s Debts.”
Here is a possible solution, which worked for me:
My husband will literally sit in the chair next to me and check out of budget discussions by falling asleep. That’s how much he does not want to deal with the subject.
He is, however, a visual organizer. I finally put every debt we had into a graph with when it would be paid off and colored it in rainbow colors. Finally, it made sense to him and he became very interested in our progress.
Perhaps if you could graph how long it will take to pay off all this debt and overlay it with life events pegged to specific times — house, baby, new car, etc. — he would get the picture.
He may be like my husband, though, who said when I showed him that we are down from 13 lines to 2, that he missed all the colors!
Agree, different people process information differently. Until I had put down on paper, with charts, how we could pay off our $55,000 in debt Mr. Sam couldn’t see it, couldn’t think it, couldn’t imagine it.
I think you are burying your head in the sand. What your husband does can and will affect you–regardless of whether your finances are combined or separate. If you continue to ignore the situation, you and your marriage are headed for big trouble.
He should be saving a bit of every check for quarterly taxes, a SEP IRA (which will save him taxes), and an emergency fund both for himself and for the business.
Check out the book “The Money Book for Freelancers, Part-timers, and the Self-Employed” by Joseph D’Agnese and Denise Kiernan. Good system for managing irregular income.
I know what I’m talking about–have been self-employed since 1987.
Good luck.
Hey Honey!
Would Jake object if you refused to go halvsies on things like cable? And by “object,” I mean would it start a huge fight?
Because aside from keeping your finances separate, I think all you can do is set an example, hope it rubs off on him, and offer input on his finances until you see it’s making him defensive.
“One of the things I’ve learned over the last six years is that he almost never agrees with me the moment when I propose something; however, six months to a year later he’ll suggest it like it was his own idea.”
Haha…I can TOTALLY relate; my significant other is the same way. After years of being careless with his finances, I think I’m finally starting to rub off on him and he’s taking control of them like I’ve never seen him do. I think it’s good that Jake pointed out your frugality–it means he’s noticing, and if he comes around with other issues, I’ll bet he comes around with this one, too.
Kristin, I think that he will eventually come around and once he does, he will probably be even more gung-ho about it than I am (if history is any indicator). I’d prefer that happen sooner than later, of course.
I did mention that I might have to drop out of the cable bill, and his response was “just let me know,” so while there was a time where that would cause a fight, I don’t think it would now.
Honey, your marriage sounds absolutely dysfunctional. In the past, mentioning cutting the cable bill would start a fight? Geez….
If I needed to talk about the cable bill or any other bill and my husband refused or got snippy with me, he would find himself sleeping in a sleeping bag in the garage.
I have a hard time understanding how someone who is as smart as you claim to be could be living as a giant doormat. Seriously, grow some balls and learn to assert yourself or spend the rest of your life tiptoeing around your selfish husband.
Knock it off already, Holly. You are not be constructive in your comments, and in fact appear to be taking every opportunity to belittle and shame Honey. Enough already.
Sorry, her comments bring out the worst in me. I’m starting to agree with some of the others that she can’t possibly be a real person writing. So….either way, I’m wasting my time.
My husband and I lived just like you. Hubby and I both had full time jobs plus a side business. My hubby being the spender(raised that way too) and me being the saver, made for some hard financial years. Hubby said “money is replaceable” when he would spend money on junk and had nothing to show for it. All of my hounding and budget making didn’t work because he didn’t believe in budgets and my credit paid too for the mistakes he made.
Here is how we solved it:
1)The checking account is only in my name and all full time money goes in automatically to pay bills. A separate business account handled all business transactions and he isn’t allowed to dip into it unless he needs business items. That way we could allow a cushion in the business for taxes, insurance, advertising, etc.
2)Tell him what he needs to make each month to pay bills. Include 1/12 of the insurance, taxes, etc. This helped because he knew the goal and if he made more than the goal, he knew his allowance would get a little more plus allocating the rest to savings and the kids accounts.
3)You must give him some freedom to spend–give him an allowance so he knows once it is gone, he can’t go get more money. This really helped my husband control what he really wants and what he needs. It gets him thinking of money differently than he was raised.
4)MOST IMPORTANTLY–Find out what his dreams are. I have said this before on this blog but once you find out that he wants to retire in a tropical place or buy a nicer home, you can use this as a tool to help him realize that you won’t get those things unless his spending changes.
It isn’t my nagging or budgets that keep him from spending. His dream of leaving our town with humid summers and snowy winters keeps him in perspective.
Honey,
Completely agree that you need to maintain separate finances in the near term, until some acceptable behavioral changes can be made.
Step one is to have a third-party (perhaps a professional financial counselor) demonstrate to him that the mess exists, and it is of enormous and immediate magnitude, so that some behavior change can happen sooner rather than later. Not only have you both behaved irresponsibly in the past, but the hole is getting deeper every single day.
Step two:I don’t understand how marriage works with separate finances, any more than I understand how marriage works with separate residences. Marriage is a 100% legal, emotional, spiritual, physical, and yes, financial commitment to your spouse. If your finances are separate, there will always be trust issues in your relationship. If you are serious about your marriage’s long-term future, once you both agree to the magnitude of the problem, and can adjust spending behaviors enough to stop digging the hole, you need to combine your finances and tackle everything together. He will NOT get on board until you demonstrate in love that your only goal is to create a viable future for you as a married couple, and that your combined resources are necessary to make that happen. If this continues to be his problem only, it will not be fixed. You are married, so you are one together. Take ownership and get after it together.
My wife and I combined our finances 6 months prior to marrying 1.5 years ago, and she is the spender. She brought 21K in debt (student loans, auto, and credit card) to our relationship, which is now 1.5K. She had (and continues to have) a small business which requires quarterly estimated tax payments of roughly $1,300, which she never made until her returns were due, with all applicable penalties. I’m the treasurer of that business now, and we haven’t missed a tax payment for over a year. We’ve since bought a house together, and we budget together-she still does NOT enjoy discussing money or budgeting, but 1) she understands how important it is to me that we do both of those regularly, and 2)she is gradually beginning to see the fruits of frugality and financial peace in our life and relationship together. Hope this helps.
I am a sort of “reformed” spender who is now, in my marriage, keeping track of the bills and outgoing money. We have a joint checking/savings account and one joint “gift” account. Things are working for us. My husband is only responsible for paying one bill (because it’s a family plan with his extended relatives, and he is responsible for getting their share and ours paid).
As for advice, now that I am much more responsible than I was before (I wasn’t married at that time), I don’t think there’s much you can do until he reaches his own tipping point. Mine was when my credit cards went into collections and I only had access to using a debit card. I HAD to change, because unless I had the actual money, it couldn’t be purchased. And now that my hubby and I are building up savings and paying our bills immediately, it feels great. That is motivating in itself.
Get him on board? I don’t think you can. And frankly, it would stress me out to feel tied to someone else’s irresponsible actions. (Hell, I used to stress MYSELF out.) I imagine he also has no urgency to change because he feels you are his “back-up” plan in case every implodes. So as others have said, do everything in your power to NOT be that safety net–or have your finances tied to his. If you can stay detached financially and emotionally when it comes to his financial fitness, things may work out. (But … if you have kids … eeek …)
You are going to get nowhere fast if you aren’t on the same page. I recommend attending Dave Ramsey’s Finacial Peace University.
You two have made a huge mess. Good lord you are over $200K in debt and on a good month bring home only a combined $7K a month.You guys need to get you income up and get it up fast to knock out this debt.
By the way we are Debt Free, do a budget every month and have combined all of our money and accounts.
These posts are a train wreck. Your finances are beyond repair (because you refuse to make necessary changes or take it seriously) and your husband is just ridiculous.
Is anyone else sure where this will go? In another year, I’m sure they’ll be “how to get divorced without taking husband’s debt” posts.
It’s so predictable. If they both don’t change their attitudes (entitlement, immaturity, stubbornness) they will be declaring bankruptcy.
Of course, that won’t be their fault either. They did everything they could. It’s just the way the system works, right?
Declaring bankruptcy won’t be a free ticket out of debt for them at all. Student loans are NOT dischargeable in bankruptcy (with very rare exceptions like maybe with full permanent disability). The vast bulk of their debt is student loans. They’re stuck with it. Plus their income is too high to discharge their debts in general and they’d have to make payments to repay the debtors. Their income is > median household income so they likely wouldn’t qualify for chapter 7. They’d have to do chapter 13 which means repaying the debts over time.
I commented on your first article, as most of the rest of the free world! With that said, I’ll limit my comment to “good luck”. You’re going to need it. I’m not being sarcastic because I’m not any better off-as far as having a spouse that just doesn’t get it-and feel it would be ironic at best, and two-faced at worst, to offer advice.
Honey, I admire your courage in sharing your journey with a tough crowd. My husband and I had a similar profile when we got married – he’s an engineer who was making the big bucks as soon as he got out of college (with almost no debt) while I had opted for impractical-no-career-value-financed graduate degree (ahem, yes, hindsight). What got us more or less on the same page was attending a Dave Ramsey-based one-day financial seminar at our church – it was actually required as part of our premarital counseling. You could see if he would go for the Financial Peace University classes, but Ramsey also does one-day speeches/seminars that might help get his wheels turning if he’s not ready for that commitment yet. I assume there are others out there who do similar things – Suze Orman, etc. – but Ramsey is the one I have experience with.
And it sounds like you already have this in mind, but while finances are certainly important, they aren’t the sum total of your relationship. As this is floating around at the forefront of your mind, make sure that you don’t allow this to become the center of your relationship – spend most of your time on the aspects of your relationship that are stronger and build on those. If nothing else, it will keep you guys balanced. I’m looking forward to watching you move forward!
Has your husband talked with a CPA about his quarterly tax payments? He really should. Your calculations for his estimated tax obligation for the year seem very low to me. I’ve been self-employed for 15 years. And I can tell you from experience that If you are not setting aside a very substantial monthly amount for quarterly tax payments and retirement, you will be burned come April 15th. I know this from painful experience. I miscalculated one year, and ended up owing $9K. I had to borrow the money from my business line of credit and it took me several years to pay it off.
I meet with my CPA several times per year, so we both have a good idea of what my actual income really is, and whether we need to adjust my quarterly tax payments. A good relationship with a CPA is key.
Yeah, I’m self employed, and I set aside 25% of gross income for quarterly taxes. Because we live in a state with no income tax and my income isn’t very high, I usually end up owing a bit less than that, but I’ve always heard the rule of thumb is a quarter to a third of income.
This woman is in for a world of hurt down the road. A man who says he wants to be in business for himself, but doesn’t want to budget, is a man who is playing games. And she will be the loser in this game. Whether she combines finances with him or not (and I strongly advise NOT!, she could, depending on state laws where she lives, be on the hook for debts he runs up. (Learned this the hard way when I found myself responsible for half of my ex’s debts after our divorce).
When it comes to financial matters, a marriage is a contractual affair, not a romantic one. Both partners need to show maturity, view their reality objectively, and not confuse their finances with their fantasies.
The author is making the classic, classic mistake, made by millions of women over time, of believing “Oh, he loves me! He’ll change!” No dear, he won’t.
Oh I missed the part about him not paying taxes.
You guys are completely out of control and headed for disaster. You either need to find a good accountant or divorce lawyer.
So far the only thing I have enjoyed about this series is that the reconciliation of accounts is nicknamed “The Reckoning”. That was clever.
This inspired me to visit the Mensa website and look at the criteria for membership. It is pretty impressive that both you and your husband have IQs in the top 2% of the general population. Which means the combination of your elite minds through marriage should yield some very powerful brainpower. Unfortunately, personal finance is just common sense… but maybe if we framed your situation as one of those little IQ test puzzles… debt + lack of common sense + ego = ?
Where does hindsight go, in this formula? Yes, ego is definitely part of the equation (on both sides). When you have empirical proof that you are smarter than 98% of the people you meet, it is hard to admit sometimes that the other person has a point.
We have empirical proof that a vast percentage of people have a better handle on their finances (and relationships) than you. How does your IQ rationalize that?
Perhaps honey’s post above is an honest bit of sharing, but anyone who uses the phrase that they have “empirical proof that they are smarter than 98% of people they meet” is just a complete turn off.
Who talks like that?
Honey and hubby need to get over themselves.
You’ve got to be kidding me. My IQ is also high enough to qualify for Mensa, but I’m smart enough to realize that IQ is a very specific way of measuring a specific kind of intelligence. I certainly don’t think it means I’m smarter than 98% of the population, especially when faced with empirical proof every day that other people know plenty of things I don’t.
wow… combine this with your “I don’t think [Jake] could be civil to religious types” comment.
You and your husband come off as extremely close minded and condescending. not the type of people that A) i would like to give advice too, and B) not the type that would likely listen anyways
I was being facetious, for Pete’s sake 🙂 For one thing, almost everyone I know has or is getting a PhD, so I’m not actually smarter than most of the people I know. For another, smart people do dumb things ALL THE TIME, because as a general rule people use emotion to make most of their decisions, not logic. I fall into this category, too, and I’m painfully aware of it.
My point would have been better articulated if I had said something along the lines of “people with high IQs tend to forget that they don’t make the majority of their decisions based on facts.” We’re therefore as fallible as anyone else – probably a lot more so, I’d argue, since it’s so easy to be self-aggrandizing.
Anyway, I apologize if I seemed to imply that our performance on one specific test says anything about our relative worth as human beings. It surely doesn’t.
For the love of pete, you two aren’t even smart enough to save $40 and get the family membership fee! I’d make that the final test if I were MENSA.
Being facetious is not a good thing.
162 Meaghan
That post made be laugh out loud. Funniest thing I have read all day.
Honey,
I do not have a Phd…nor do I belong to Mensa. However, you make me feel like an absolute genius!!!!
Please keep talking.
Getting a PhD is not necessarily the mark of smartness.
Often it’s a mark of “bad job market”, and “poor job field choice” .
This can’t be a real post. You can’t be a real person, thinking because you have a real PhD that you are better than other people. A lot of people could get PhD’s but choose not to. It is very self indulgent. Mensa is a pretentious association. If you can’t or won’t pay your taxes, you aren’t very smart. Lack of understanding of the autism spectrum is not very “intelligent” either. You should resign from this position. You are wasting our time.
Honey, I tried. Honestly. Over your past few posts I’ve defended you when others torn into you, but I just cant justify it anymore. I reread all of your comments in this thread and I am dumbfounded.
1. What does having a high IQ have to do with personal finance? I know you didn’t bring it up at first, but you continue to harp on it.
2. Some of the most intelligent people I know do not have PhDs unless they chose to work in a field that absolutely requires one.
3. Most people with high-average to high IQs don’t need to advertise it. Actions speak louder than words.
4. I was hoping that you, Honey, would be a great addition to GRS. A getting out of debt success story like J.D perhaps. In your comments, all I see are excuses and reasons why our advise is not good enough.
I give up.
There is certainly a disconnect between the life Honey seems to want and the life she currently has. On one hand, she is highly educated Ph.D., member of Mensa, and is married to a lawyer. On the other hand, despite her education and privilege, she seems to be floundering. Part of me wonders if it’s an elaborate gimmick for attention, but then I think not. She’s just bought into a completely distorted vision of herself as a “success,” that I think prevents her from critically evaluating her own mistakes, including that she doesn’t seem to realize that she’s an enabler.
If you and your husband are so smart, why are you asking all of us dummies for advice? Figure out how to solve your own problems.
Honey, I’m tempted to say that I am shocked by the stupidity of your comment, but then I remember all the foolish Internet remarks that haunt celebrities. If stupid, you are not alone.
Regardless of how serious a faux pas that was…. if you believe that your IQ makes you smarter than 98% of people, then you are a damn fool. Whether a joke or not, your choice to make that comment seriously lowers you in the estimation of readers here.
And for you, it should serve as empirical proof that intelligence isn’t just about IQ.
Since you are now a GRS employee and not a reader/writer, I guess the gloves are off. I can’t fathom why you were hired, unless as a bad example to the readers. It seems that you are just asking for help from the readership, and like your husband, you don’t seem to want to be compliant. I say this with the greatest respect. Your husband doesn’t want to meet you halfway in most regards. He has a fledgling business with a partner that can’t manage day to day expenses. Yet he wants to buy a house when you have over $200k in debt already. Still, he wants to relocate. How would that business survive, or would he abandon it? Houses in the Northeast are about five, yes, 5 times more than those in Arizona. You would be hard pressed to find a house suitable for a Phd and a lawyer for under $500k. But, you would be closer to the Dooney and Burke factory in CT and could go to the warehouse sale. Then again there are thousands of 5 or 6 year associates from law firms looking for jobs because they didn’t make partner. The fact that your husband thinks he can dictate or argue about you buying a handbag is chilling. Yet your electronics charges are almost as much on a yearly basis as your pet expenses. My 55 year old cousin divorced her husband after she found out that he never paid income taxes for a few years. She was liable for his taxes. She was not viewed as an innocent spouse. The liability existed for almost 15 years, then the IRS gave up. She could not work due to rheumatoid arthritis so she was practically penniless. If you relocate, you will probably do so to a state that will make you liable for his debts, (including his partner’s shortfalls). I don’t see any hope for your situation unless he grows up overnight. You will always play mother to his little boy. Sorry, but I’ve seen it all.
I think the best advice people have given is to lead by example, and put things in the context of how you want to pay down your debt. For example, instead of not eating out because you think he spends too money, don’t eat out because you want to put your half of that money towards your debt. If you don’t watch the cable, tell Jake that you’re uncomfortable having it because you want that money going to pay off your debt. In the very least, you’ll be putting yourself in a better situation and, at the best, he may start copying your behavior eventually.
Wow, I missed the part about him not paying taxes. This is a lot worse than you think. And your attitude seems too laid back and relaxed.
Disregard my earlier advice. You need to hire a good divorce attorney and accountant. This will n
Excellent article, I’m in a similar position except my husband is the only one with income. I like the idea of compiling information for when he is ready to look at the numbers.
Hi Honey,
For me, most important thing to remember is that I didn’t marry him for his money. We keep separate accounts and he gives me a fixed amount every month toward the mortgage, but beyond that we don’t keep scrupulous track of who pays what; some bills he always pays, some I always pay, some we trade off depending on who has the money at the time.
I have been able to build a reasonable amount of savings in the 10+ years we’ve been together, even as he deals with credit card and IRS debt, and that has come in handy when we’ve needed a new roof or when we find a tremendous deal on a trip to Ireland. We are able to live a little, he is working on his debt and getting better all the time – spontaneously without my nagging he has decided that he doesn’t want to carry a balance on his credit cards anymore! Still we each at times get frustrated with the other’s priorities, but as long as I remember I didn’t marry him for his money, we can make it all work.
Except that to a certain degree the way she talk about the future success of his business, him being a lawyer, and don’t forget that the two of them are smarter than 98% of the population (the sort of comment is EXACTLY why I let my Mensa membership lapse)…
She DID marry him for his money – or more precisly for his ablility to make it.
My husband started his own business a year or so after we got married. He’d been working in a university hospital’s rehab center as a physical therapist assistant and trainer for 14 years. He’d watched numerous colleagues leave and start their own businesses, and prosper. I knew he had the skills to do it and I trusted that he had the discipline. I was right.
Discipline is absolutely essential to successful self-employment.
He was earning more privately, after less than three months, than he’d earned at the university. Now he earns about 3x-4x, depending on his client load in a given year, what he earned there.
He is regularly recruited for jobs in clinics, physical therapy offices, and gyms. That happens when a person is successful and has a good reputation. It doesn’t happen if someone has run his own business into bankruptcy or a malpractice lawsuit.
He has ALWAYS handled his own debt, paid his taxes on time and in full, taken proper care of his licensing and continuing education requirements, and contributed meaningfully to the household expenses. If there is something he wants that I don’t want, he pays for it. (And vice versa. Satellite TV is his expense – even though I watch it too – and the garden is mine – even though he enjoys it too.)
We keep separate checking and savings accounts (though with signing privileges. Our credit lines are in our own names.
We are both high earners now. We have financial discussions about three times a year. Neither of us “checks up on” the other but we do discuss any big expenses coming up and how we’ll handle them.
I am the budgeter, planner, and long-term-goal setter. DH pays our rent & utilities, and I handle long-term savings, investments, & insurance – as well as our entertainment budget and expenses for our mutual sport.
“Partnership” means the partners actually work together to achieve common goals. It doesn’t require merged finances, but it certainly does require agreement on what those common goals ARE.
I like your comment about discipline. IMHO, one of the problems leaking out of Honey’s story is that if Jake spends what he wants when he wants, then he lacks discipline in managing his personal finances. And if he lacks discipline there, he probably lacks it for running his business as well.
Along those lines, staying disciplined is exactly my problem with my personal finances. I take your comment as well to be a gentle reminder to me to stay the course. Thanks for sharing.
I’d like to add one more thought: The title of the article is: “When one partner won’t budget”
If they won’t budget, then face it, they’re not really a partner, are they?
Ha, I misread it. I thought the title of the article was “When One Partner Won’t Budge”. Still appropriate, maybe it should have been “When One Partner Won’t Budge-t”.
Sorry, not $55/month, $55/paycheck
$55/paycheck for what? Your joint health insurance? His gas/auto? Those are the only two $55 expenses you’ve mentioned so far…
$55 per paycheck is for health insurance for both of us (so, $110/month). I didn’t count it here because I never see the money; ditto for our dental insurance (which is $32/paycheck and is amazing). He didn’t want vision insurance so that’s about $2/paycheck just for me.
Sorry for the confusion; the interwebs ate one of my comments and I did a bad job re-posting it.
Tell him you want to help support his entrepreneurial dreams and get him a book keeper for his business that makes an appointment face-to-face every two weeks. This will make him feel like he’s a big man in charge, not nit-pciked by his wife.
Eventually, with time, especially since some of his personal and business expenses overlap, he should start applying more organization to personal expenses. Or keep hiring someone to do it. Americans can be stubborn about having to do it all themselves, but really, getting someone to support the weak spots in your relationship — whether it’s a maid or a book keeper or a nurse when you’re old — can save your marriage.
Also, consolidate his student loans.
Lastly, let him think these ideas were his 6-12 months later. I know it’s annoying, but I’ve seen how happy my parents have been because my mother lets my father think her ideas were his brainchild. Forego recognition for financial prosperity and peace of mind. It’ll be worth it (even if you will occasionally have to grit your teeth).
Wow, this is a brilliant idea. I wish I could like it 100x.
Maybe it’s time to start thinking outside the box, Honey. Conversation and patience have failed; maybe you need to try something a little more…psychological.
“What would you do in my situation, if your goal was to end up like this couple?”
I never coud have married someone with this kind of attitude about money. This isn’t to say I couldn’t have been “in love” with someone like this, but I know it would have been a really hard road to spend my life with a spender type. A road I Would not have chosen to pursue.
There is a lot of talk about separate finances and separate tax returns, but there is only so much you can do when you are *married.* His IRS problems will be your IRS problems, no matter how you file your tax returns. “Married but separate” is a really fine line.
I doubt this comment is useful for Honey Smith, who is already knee deep in this marriage. But this is a good lesson for others on compatibility when considering a life mate. The link to the couple (saver/spender) who “figured it our over time” is great, but I think it would be wiser to “figure it out” before getting married. A marriage like this may not be “impossible,” but I am just not exactly sure that it is worth the effort. The odds are stacked against a “Happily ever after.”
Dave Ramsey gave some absolutely terrible advice (which, I’m discovering, is the norm for him) a few weeks ago to a woman who wasn’t sure if she wanted to marry a guy who had $200k in student debt. He, of course, told her you can’t put a price tag on love and didn’t want to dissuade her from marrying him. Maybe not, but you can surely put a pricetag on your future financial well-being.
Marrying anyone with $200k in debt, no matter how much they make, is just stupid. I would “date” someone who was that much in the hole, but I’d NEVER, EVER fall in love or consider marrying that person. EVER. I will never commit financial suicide for someone, no matter how much I *think* I am in love with them. And I will never voluntarily put myself in that situation.
Even if that person accrued the student debt to obtain a degree that allows them to make $200k a year and is paying it off at an easy rate? That kind of absolutism just seems stupid. (And plenty of people who have married young doctors or dentists, for instance, are glad they didn’t follow your advice.)
That’s true — Fresh out of medical school, people are often 200k in debt, and that’s totally reasonable considering how much they will make yearly. But I think the distinction is whether the individual got 200k in debt thoughtfully. Medical school = thoughtful debt. 200k in debt through a mix of tier 1 (not T14) law school and credit cards? Much less thoughtful in today’s economy.
Well, honey, there are plenty of gold diggers like yourself who are willing to waive off the $200k debt in promise of future earnings, so you and your ilk can knock yourself out. Me? I’m successful enough, savvy enough and desirable enough where I can choose to not date someone $200k in the hole…regardless of why they are there. Doctors and dentists don’t love anyone better than custodians or bus drivers.
Wow, way to be condescending, Kelly. I’m not married to anyone, nor “hunting” for it, and I make a perfectly nice living on my own (out of which I can easily make reasonable student loan payments).
But there’s a pretty basic flaw in your logic, which is that someone who has debt payments is entirely unmarriageable due to money, while someone with a lower income is not, despite the fact that the higher income minus the debt payments might still exceed the lower income. You’re the one who made it about money, not me. I mean, don’t get me wrong, you’re welcome to have an obsessive aversion to debt and live by it but pretending that’s a reasonable life strategy for everyone is pretty heinous.
(And as someone who sometime seeks out, say, medical care, I’m really glad many people don’t follow it – I don’t want the only pool of people available to be my doctor the ones who happened to be rich enough to pay for it. I’d rather have a wider pool of talent to choose from.)
Katie is right. Most future physicians are over $200,000 in debt and have great earning potential. I certainly think that you need to consider the circumstances and the overall financial prudence of the person you are dating. A heavy student debt load doesn’t automatically equal bad with money.
I wouldn’t have married someone with that kind of debt either, no matter HOW much I loved him.
That said, love does make people do stupid things. We all just have to hope that when reason returns, we have the resources to make use of it.
Exactly. Like I said, there are plenty of gold diggers who would jump at the opportunity to wed themselves to $200k in debt just so they could tell everyone they married a doctor and life that lifestyle. The world is full of stupid people.
The gold digger comment is entirely unwarranted.
There are lots of young professionals out there with this kind of debt. The cost of college, graduate school and professional school has vastly out paced inflation.
I don’t think the problem is so much the debt but the attitude about budgeting, planning and incurring new debt.
To be fair, there’s a helluva difference between someone graduating from med or law school with $200K in debt, and someone who’s racked up $200K in debt due to crazy spending. And let’s not forget someone who’s racked up $200K in medical bills, too.
Well, I guess my boyfriend shouldn’t marry me because my mortgage is over $200K, despite the fact that is my only debt, and my housing costs are less than a third of my income.
I couldn’t agree more with you. There is a reason that all the major religions make you study to be married and go through counseling before you actually sign the papers.
Going into a marriage without being on the same page with regard to finances and writing that off by merely keeping separate finances really just buries the issue for later. It’s much better to get it out and dealt with and find out if you actually want to link yourself to someone.
Oh, come ON, you can’t think that this BRILLIANT couple would learn anything from those snarky, nasty hateful people that have been following the major world religions for thousands of years, do you!
What could a Rabbi, Iman, or Priest know about human behavior?? Besides, they all get so PREACHY about self control and loving others more than oneself.
(Yes, this IS in “sarcasm” font.)
Excuse me if I sound repetitive. But he definitely can’t continue this way, as you know. Have you thought about approaching him with his thoughts on certain financial issues. Maybe something like, “hey, I’ve been thinking about buying this and it costs X-amount. what should I do?” Even though you know the answer, you want him to have an open dialogue with you. Or say something like, “I am having a little difficult time in coming up with a plan to save for [insert financial goal], I need your help.” The point is you want him to give you the information you know is needed to reach these goals.
I hope this helps in some way. Good luck! It’s worked for people I’ve counseled. Just a thought! 🙂
I know your husband OK’s your sharing of all this information. How does he react or feel after seeing that the majority of commenters are so appalled by his monetary situation that they advice his wife to steer clear of his financial life? For me, that would be a wake up call, to see that so many people thought my behavior was that destructive. Maybe that sort of awareness would help change his behavior.
If she shared the number of negative comments- it would likely make him even more defensive of position.
Not a good idea to approach it that way.
Yes, I think just READING the comments would be overwhelming, and therefore easy to just blow off. But then he doesn’t read the blog, I believe she said. So I would just select some specific comments and print them out….so that he could see. To me, it would be hurtful and yet eye-opening if I realized that so many people thought my choices were dragging my spouse down.
Honey,
There seems to be a lot of talk about “me” (you) and him, but not much about us.
I understand that joint accounts can be beneficial, but you still need to work TOGETHER to manage the money.
My comment here probably says more about me but I’ve started to get the feeling that I’m being duped. Have they already made progress (budgets, income, etc) and we’re just hearing the dramatic “before” picture so that the “in progress” updates seem all the more impressive?
I know that’s terrible to suggest (and I’m not typically a conspiracy theorist).
Either way it’s frustrating as a reader….I’m either being set up, or I’m just rubbernecking at a train wreck.
After reading her comment that this is only her second post and there is more to come I got the same feeling.
..maybe we can just skip to the end.
That’s what caught my eye as well.
And a few other references like how he’ll be all gung-ho once he comes around. If this is unfolding in real-time, it just seems like that’s a real fantasy based on what’s been written. I think the first “goal” is his acknowledging there’s a problem, which he hasn’t yet.
Dunno — guess we’ll see.
This is just painful.
painful yes, but notice the comments these articles generate? I think GRS just got the perfect soap opera (and is probably laughing all the way to the bank). Each week we, the fairly boring, money savvy readers, get a new installment of the awful, yet engrossing details of someone else’s skeletons in the closet of life. Each week we (or is it me?) spend way too much time reading and rereading the sordid details, and then play coach, judge or counselor, depending on how we react to the information. It’s a pretty good deal for GRS cause their traffic goes up, this story line keeps people interested (and coming back for more?) and this website probably reaps the monetary rewards from all the drama. Sad, but seemingly true.
The problem is, we’re a financially conservative enough bunch that if this is a deliberate rollercoaster, some of us will jump off. Just reading about Honey’s situation makes me anxious.
It’s like those Shopaholic books that were really popular a few years ago – a bunch of my friends LOVED them but they gave me so much dread I couldn’t enjoy them.
Agree.
All they seemingly wanted out of hiring this person was to generate traffic which is what they have done. Getting rich slowly or raking in the dosh by any means possible?
Unfortunately, hiring Paris Hilton would have done the same job. Lots of traffic but not a good fit for the site. IMO.
I am sick of this car crash so am out. Can’t begin to describe how much this all irritates me.
Defining your financial relationship with “his way” and “your way” tells me a lot about your situation.
He’s an attorney- so he was taught to negotiate a certain way. Learn to adapt to his style and you’ll find it’s much easier to get more of what you want. Notice I didn’t say everything you want.
My first and only suggestion, if you value your marriage, is to contact me! I’ll work with you and your husband at no cost. This offer is not intended to come across as spammy- it’s a serious offer to help you with your issue.
Seriously, Adapt To His Style?
I find this very paternalistic. And I also question that you would be the only way of saving them.
I’ve been where you are in many respects. Couple of thoughts
1) This is a journey and will be a process that evolves over time
2) For NOW, it seems like you need to take over the managing of all the finances. Have him figure out his monthly cash needs and transfer that to a separate account. It should cover gas, food and “blow” money. He spends that money however he pleases, no questions ask. Make it a generous amount in the beginning especially. The rest goes into a joint account that you manage. From what you’ve said, he would be ok with that, right? I know its more complicated with the self employment cash flow, but really, if he’s not interested, just do it. It will likely be some time before he gets interested. I don’t think this is the scenario you will always be in, but at this moment, I think a little clean up and debt reduction is in order.
Good luck!!
I would say, budget carefully for joint expenses, keep your finances separate, and wait for him to hit bottom and/or run into something that makes it his idea. File taxes separately also.
This is likely to be a long road for you, and you’ll feel broke for a long time– no Dave Ramsey several-years-to-a-quick-fix. But in five years, if you deal with your own issues and refuse to help him get into more debt, you will look back and say, “wow, life is better than it was, even though I’m still worried about money.”
If there is a way for you to take a temporary second job at some point, you probably do want to consider it, but your job may not allow it. However, if you can do it, and present it to your husband as “I’m doing this to get out of my financial hole” he may later come to take you more seriously. And of course you will be better off.
Writing at this website is a well-paying second job.
I mean this with no disrespect, but honest curiosity. Is this “writer” just a comment-grab, or a faux writer? These posts are so ludicrous, and her responses so entitled, dismissive, and defensive, that it’s hard to think that she is a writer chosen to give advice.
Are you kidding? Revenues for blogs are generally driven by traffic, ad clicks, and sharing. GRS picked a winner with this train wreck! Admit it, none of us can look away.
you nailed it
Yes, I admitted it a while back! And this post has also caused me to comment more on it alone than in all posts combined in the past few years!!
I’m going to need some solid proof to believe that “husband” is a member of Mensa.
I know this is the least of Jake and Honey’s problems, but they’re $200K in debt and he spends $40 a month on drycleaning?
He is a lawyer and I assume he has to wear suits at work. Is $40 a month expensive to dry clean your suits? Doesn’t sound like that much to me. Seems like a reasonable work required expenditure.
Which brings up a good point: If this is a business expenditure, then why is it listed as part of his personal finances?
Not only does Honey need to keep her finances separate from Jake’s, but Jake needs to separate his business expenses from his personal ones…
Dry cleaning and laundering shirts and suits that you can wear in your social life is not tax deductible. If the husband wore a gas station attendants uniform that he could only wear on his job, or lab coats, that would be tax deductible. Does anyone remember that designer Mary McFadden tried to deduct all her hairdresser’s expenses because it added to “her look?” Denied by the Tax Court. Good try, though.
Sorry, I couldn’t get past the comment about you being the “most frugal girl” he’s ever dated without posting a comment. Honey, you’re not dating him anymore. You’re married to him. And like it or not, you’re both eventually going to have to be on the same page with regard to money issues. Right now it sounds like you’re not even in the same library…
Well, I’m also the most frugal girl he’s ever married, but that’s a far less meaningful statement when you consider I’m the only girl he’s ever married.
And, hopeful that out of all the girls he ever dated, he married the most frugal one. Again, it may take longer than I would prefer, but the hints are there that he will come around.
You’re making it sound like you are a frugal genius and you have to twist your husband’s arm to even get him to say the word frugal.
Yet, by your own admission, you spend hundreds of dollars on hair cuts, hair products, massages, sorority and mensa fees and are in a ton of debt.
Did I miss your epiphinany?
*Epiphany
Thus proving that I am not smarter than 98% of the general populace!! 😉
Honey,
I’m sorry to hear you say, “I refuse to become The Girl Who Only Says No or The Girl Who Only Talks About Money, because that will only poison the well for every aspect of our relationship, not just our finances.”
How can openly communicating and saying NO to things you CANNOT afford poison your relationship? I have a feeling a year from now you will realize just the opposite.
My husband and I are CONSTANTLY talking about money and it’s the reason we’ve been able to live relatively debt-free (our mortgage being our debt.)
Best of luck.
I guess hindsight is 20/20, but I seriously would have known more about his money attitudes (and how much they diverge from yours) before I would have married someone. It is true that when my husband and I had gotten married, neither had made very much (and my husband still doesn’t) but bottom line we were both in agreement about living modestly, not accumulating debt, and other deal-breaking differences.
Unfortunately, unless you two get some outside intervention on your finances, you are going to become “the girl who always says no” and he is going to become “the man who resents the girl who always says no and spends ‘my’ money whichever way I want”.
Hopefully, you are in a state where you will not be legally responsible for his inevitable tax delinquency…
The handwriting is on the wall, I fear…
I think Honey is real. Were those conspiracy theory comments serious? I can see how you would come up with it — there is no picture/bio posted of her on the staff page. But, I still think GRS wouldn’t make up a writer.. it’s a grassroots blog with a lot of integrity.
Honey, I know this blog is about your personal finance journey to success, but I wonder if you could someday post about your past choices. How did you decide to pursue a PhD, and how did your husband decide to pursue the JD? And if you don’t mind sharing, which field exactly is your PhD in? Did you go to a school that paid your tuition and offered you a stipend, or did you have to pay your way? Is there anything you would have done differently in making those decisions? Do you still feel that your degrees will someday maximize your earning potential in a field you love? Any advice to current undergraduate students pursuing law school or humanities grad school?
Thanks!
That’s my very next post, Maddie!
My husband has refused to have a budget for our 20 years of marriage. I’m a psychologist and finally figured out that he equates budgeting with financial failure. We are completely debt-free, so budgeting isn’t essential if your income is adequate and you don’t spend foolishly. I would prefer a budget, but his approach obviously works, too. One concern I have is that you be willing to refrain from dictating on money issues. I always have a say, but if I had insisted or called the shots, I am certain we would be divorced–something that can really damage your finances. Best wishes.
I have no new advice to offer aside from, DON’T GET PREGNANT.
And I mean that as seriously and as politely as humanly possible.
THIS!!!!!!! x 100.
A child in this relationship would likely be the fast track to single motherhood for Honey PLUS half of hubby’s debts PLUS child care cost PLUS hubby not paying child support…..
and the current situation will look like Nirvana by comparison!
Honey, you married this man because??????
PLEASE keep an innocent life out of this trainwreck.
I disagree. From what I can gather Honey is already in her thirties. If they wait until they are out of debt, she will have lost her window to have biological children or will have to spend lots of money on fertility treatments. Adoption is also horribly expensive. Heck, the rate they are going, she will be in menopause before they get out of debt.
While children are expensive, they can also be a wake up call that leads you to really change your spending. Now that we have kids I am amazed at the frivolous things we spent money on before.
they don’t necessarily have to wait until they are out of debt, but they need to get jake’s business on stable footing (increased income and the tax mess taken care of), get the household income up, get their expenses way down, and make some progress toward reducing that debt load.
kids are expensive – even just adding $1000 a month to their monthly spending, which is sort of middle-of-the-road for a good daycare, would at this point be financially catastrophic. that doesn’t even begin to contemplate costs for pre-natal care, delivery costs, any loss of income while honey is on maternity leave and jake isn’t working. once the kid arrives, it needs to be fed, diapered, and clothed, and the costs will increase as the kid gets older.
Can we dump Honey and bring back the ten wedding showers guy? I know he was no Mensan, but…
He is looking better and better!!
Hahahahaha this is the comment of the day
Honey,
If you 2 were my daughter and son-in-law I would literally be stroking out over your finances and BOTH of your attitudes. Your husband is out of control and horrifically irresponsible and you make excuses for him every step of the way. I’d give some advice, but it’s already all been given to you and I don’t think you’ll follow any of it. I wish you would otherwise you guys are just a train wreck waiting to happen.
But he’s changing! The signs are there! Honey says so. And she’s smarter than you, since she’s in Mensa, so she must be right. Empirical evidence.
Oh Meaghan, what a great comment!! I’m laughing myself sick.
If your husband had a hypothetical child who wanted to start a business, would his advice be: “This assumes that I actually have a budget…which I do not. I just make however much money I happen to make and pay whatever bills happen to fall due. Perhaps it’s not the best system, but it’s worked well so far.”
This is bad business, and business is personal. Jake is in the business of living Jakes life; this involves having a wife and an independent business (and other things, like satellite television). If he wants to make sure he can have his life, like business men watch out for their business interests, he’ll have to start budgeting in his personal life like any other good bookeeper.
I’m going to skip the poo-flinging fest altogether and just offer a few constructive and relationship-affirming suggestions (although I’ll say I was tempted to suggest you give him a boot to the head). 😀
First, your husband needs to understand that a high income does not mean high net worth. He probably feels under pressure to “look successful” in order to prosper in his business. For a clarification on that subject, because awareness is the first step to any kind of change, you two can read together “The Millionaire Next Door”. If he refuses, then please give him another boot to the head.
Second, I suggest you read the great Switch: How to Change Things When Change is Hard. I love that book in that it shows you a workable path to create change in any situation.
Third, though this should have been said first, but I wanted to get into the money and change first, take your husband to counseling even if you have to drag him kicking and screaming, because money issues aside your relationship looks like an overheated engine that’s burned up all the oil and is about to melt.
If nothing happens then please give him a boot to the head. 🙂
(you can click on each link, they are all different and all hilarious)
Best wishes– really! I hope you two can work it out. You really need help. and a crowd of strangers ganging up on you on the internet isn’t going to do it. CALL A THERAPIST FIRST THING TOMORROW MORNING. Actually, call right now! Even if you need to pay with a credit card. This is a mental health emergency. I can’t imagine your level of stress, must be off the charts.
Agree!!! I love the “Millionaire” series of books. It really puts things in perspective that the real-life “Joneses” probably spend a lot less (on just about everything) than we “think” they spend a ton on. It was a real eye-opening set of books.
GRS gods, what the.. “marked for moderation”? Come on! I’m trying to put in some good links there!!
Haha. Love it. Eventually, Nerdo mio, you may have access to the comment approval functionality here at GRS. When that happens, you can circumvent the moderation that occurs when you put in too many links. 🙂
Can I just say I LOVE LOVE LOVE El Nerdo!
No real advice or admonishments for Honey… she’s had 230 before I got her so I’ll just say it one more time… I LOVE EL NERDO!
What if you make it a bet or a game? He follows your budget for 1 month (or 2 or 3) and then you both review the difference. Maybe he needs a more tangible frame of reference for the money he could be saving. Does he have a favorite bottle of scotch? If you follow this budget you save X bottles of scotch. Of course ideally you won’t be buying X bottles of scotch with the extra cash, but paying down debt.
I the meantime, yes keep finances separate. Possibly look into filing taxes separately as well. I know you commented on why you file jointly, but it doesn’t seem like the best choice until your financial goals are more aligned.
I actually really like this piece of advice – it’s creative and applicable – so I’m not trying to demean it at all… But, how scary is this? He’s a grown-up, an attorney with people’s LIVES in his hands, and several people have suggested that Honey resort to cute little games in order to help him manage his finances and be a responsible adult. He’s not Jane and Michael tricked in cleaning the nursery by Mary Poppins. He’s a grown-up, and should be able to act like one based simply on the very real consequences that he’s facing if he doesn’t get his act together.
Just make more money already – both of you. All the rest about cutting expenses is just noise.
Your relationship will be fine if you both pull up your bootstraps. Right now it’s stressful.
Realistically, your husband wasn’t in the financial position to be opening up his own shop with that much debt in hand – and I assume no savings (and what sounds like flaky partners). I did it myself without the debts and it’s tough to get things off the ground in the first few years. In hindsight, I wouldn’t have done it – or not at that time.
I articled at a CA firm and put the billable hours in and went through the stress of that – so I get that he got burnt out. It’s a freaking inhumane system. There’s also the over-reaction to being sick of depriving yourself through so many years of school and not being able to spend anything (I was lucky enough to not have credit cards at least.) I would give it a year or two if I were him and if his income hasn’t increased appreciably (ie. doubled), I’d re-examine my work options.
Honey, it is quite likely that your husband will never make the money you and he hope and expect he will – the entire market for lawyers has changed in this country. It seems like you are banking on big returns from his business saving the both of you. A law degree doesn’t guarantee the income it once did. I hope that what you are expecting happens for your sake but it isn’t wise to count on it.
I see two “relationship affirming” options for you:
1) Decide what you can pay towards household expenses, pay that and channel the rest of your energy into paying off your own debt and increasing your income. Don’t mention budgets, saving money or the word “no” to him. Be the Girl Who Lives in Fantasyland with Her Man.
Or
2) Accept that the two of you will always be in debt and in periodic financial crisis for the rest of your life but decide that you love him and want to avoid upsetting him enough to just deal with this.
Those are the only choices I see that seem to mesh with your situation and all the limits on what you will consider you have placed upon the readers you are asking for advice.
I truly don’t mean to be snarky but, if your posts and responses to comments here are real, you are so incredibly entitled it just drips from your writing. I know you likely will read this as anonymous online meanness but it isn’t. Please consider whether the many negative responses you are getting here might not have some truths you can use to reevaluate your life.
And I have to congratulate GRS on finding someone always guaranteed to generate comments. I’d like to see a post on how much money GRS makes from this craziness versus a nice reasonable Donna Freedman post.
aah, Donna Freedman.. I love her posts, they are serious, down to earth, helpful and funny.
She walks the walk and talks the talk… she even ate Ice Cream from a garbage can.. I loved that post! hysterical!
“And I have to congratulate GRS on finding someone always guaranteed to generate comments.”
^^this
This commentor gets it so correct with the reference to entitlement. Honey and her husband ooze with entitlement, privilege and delusion. I actually could afford regular massages, and I wouldn’t dream of it because I don’t feel entitled to that level of luxury. I’d be horrified not to plan properly for my tax obligations and would never dream of prioritizing my frivolous spending over that. I became a member of MENSA but never again chose to pay the annual dues because I didn’t need a douchy membership to prove my smarts or bolster my self confidence. They are even delusional and entitled regarding references to jobs. Here’s a hint: earning $90K means you didn’t work at “big law.” “Big law” refers to a specific set of large national and international law firms, and even in smaller markets, their lowest starting salaries are $160K. In bigger markets, starting salaries are $160-180K.
What is going on here?!?
Yesterday we had a snake oil pitch of marketing to marketers. Today we have a painful look at the minutia of a spendthrift’s budget.
Rein it in man. Get this blog back on track!!!
If I were in your shoes, I’d start by trying to help my husband become less selfish. I understand that both of you care about animal rights issues. I’d hope that he aims to become someone who uses his money and power to help animals, not just to selfishly fund every indulgence he wants without any planning or budget. And while giving $10 per month to the Humane Society is better than $0, it’s really quite pathetic. Someone in his situation could afford to give a lot more if he planned better and spent less on himself. As he knows, animals suffer more than we humans can even imagine. They need so much more from him than he’s giving. I loved the feeling I got when I wrote my first 4-figure checks to animal organizations. Maybe he’ll be motivated to do better with his money so he can help someone other than himself. Go watch some videos on PETA’s website or the Humane Society’s website. If watching the horrors that animals endure on the path to being eaten and killed by people or tested on or whatever else doesn’t motivate him to be less selfish so he can do more to help the animals, I don’t know what will.
If I were you, I’d also put my foot down and start winning some of the disagreements about money. Every time you don’t change the status quo, he essentially gets his way at your expense and at the expense of your family’s financial future. Why does every expense (like cable) that you object to get to remain in the budget? Either withdraw your half of the funding for everything you don’t agree to, or continue to push the point until you he compromises to your point of view at least half the time.
And I wouldn’t entertain or enable his financial irresponsibility. Related to your last post, you have veto power regarding buying a home. Don’t go look at house, don’t sign any financial documents, don’t go to a mortgage broker or bank with him. (Also, just like you wouldn’t want someone to waste his time with a free legal consultation if the person wasn’t serious about hiring a lawyer, don’t waste the time of the real estate agent or the mortgage brokers.)
Maybe I’m being overly optomistic, but I think Jake is already making positive changes toward being more money wise. He allowed you to post this. More importantly, he allowed you to look at the numbers to calculate his yearly and monthly expenses. When you mentioned that based on your numbers he was short on taxes, he didn’t get mad, he was thankful that you brought it to his attention. And apparently he is no longer upset about the idea of you opting out of cable. All of this and you are on what? Your 4th post? Rome wasn’t built in a day and you are not going to change his mindset in a day. Personally, I see hope.
Please tell me this isn’t a real post. I find it difficult to tolerate people who feel the need to project their accomplishments for the sake of stroking their own egos as I find those types to be generally very shallow. I’ve averaged about a quarter of a million dollars the last three years and I drive a 10 year old car and none of my friends know it. I donate to charities regularly and all my nieces and nephews will get to go to the college of their choice without concern for cost. All that money you’re spending on making sure other people know you have money is unfortunate and meaningless in the long run.
Another idea for motivating your ridiculous husband: the health and well-being of your animals. If (rather, WHEN) your pets have a major health crisis, you and your animals are SCREWED due to the financial irresponsibility and selfishness of you and your husband.
Among my pets, I’ve dealt with cancer, a chronic intestinal disease, an oral disease, and other major health issue. Each event has cost me $1000-4000 in veterinary bills. If I wasn’t able to pay, my pets would have died early or suffered immensely.
Do you and your husband really want to be responsible for having to euthanize your pet because you can’t afford vet bills for a severe illness/disease? Do you want your pets to suffer because you can’t afford routine care or other healthcare?
Are your husband’s many indulgences on his own desires (whatever he feels like eating in a restaurant or grocery store, cable, and so many other things) really worth not being in a financial position to care for your animals? And are those things really worth not having more disposable income to help other animals that are in desperate need?
Yes, we are very concerned about our animals. As you can see, I had budgeted $2300 in vet expenses per year because that’s what we spent last year. We know we can expect those expenses to go up – the cats are 14 and 15, the dog is at least 10 (who knows, we found her abandoned in a parking lot and she was so neglected the vet we took her to told us not to even try and find her previous owner).
We used to have a third cat who was diabetic. Between insulin, needles, and all the secondary medical issues common with diabetes (she had to have almost all her teeth pulled, was forever getting infections of one sort or another, and used three times the litter of a normal cat) we have been there. I think I mentioned, besides my wedding the only time I’ve added any credit card debt in the last 4 years was the week she died, which cost about $2500.
Pets are probably the big non-negotiable in our budget. If they got sick, we’d cut pretty much everything to take care of them.
You missed my point. You say you’d “cut out pretty much everything” IF your animals got sick. They ARE going to get sick (all living things do), so the point is to live your financial life NOW in a manner that will allow you to provide for them. Massages, cable, fancy food and other crap shouldn’t trump being able to care for your animals when they need something.
A few months ago I recall an article on this site about catching an STD (Sexually Transmitted Debt).
If he won’t undertake any sort of budgetting for you, then you are best to keep all your finances separate.
Ask him what he plans to do if he gets an IRS audit.
As some people have mentioned, there are positive signs to your relationship:
1) Jake is open about his finances with you (including access to mint.com)
2) Jake is open to having both of your finances aired in a very public venue
3) Jake had been paying down his consumer debt, at least prior to starting his business.
That being said, more things need to happen.
1) Separate the business finances from the personal finances, and get a good accountant to get the business’ finances in order.
2) If Financial Peace University isn’t for the atheist in Jake, try a different (but similar) program.
3) Get Jake to talk about his goals for his life. House? Travel? Retirement? Just a general savings account that goes up every month? Then the two of you come up with a plan to make those dreams happen. Having a more concrete goal rather than something nebulous like “getting out of debt” might be the incentive he needs to alter his behavior.
4) The two of you need some kind of counseling/mediator to help you navigate some of the issues you’ve brought up (including Jake’s family’s troubled history with money).
5) Give each of y’all an allowance (though with the amount of debt you have, it will be small). Jake needs to feel the freedom of being able to spend money, or he won’t keep to any kind of financial plan. But the financial plan will place limits on his free spending, to put y’all on a more financially sound track.
Lastly, model financially prudent behavior. I am the more financially conservative partner in our marriage, but my husband has become more so because he doesn’t want to drag “the team” down. He wants to be an asset rather than a liability. Even though we never had any kind of a conversation like that, he saw my good financial habits and knew if he continued like he had been, that he would have been dragging us down. His own sense of responsibility kicked in without me having to say or do anything. I suspect that Jake might end up feeling the same way.
Good luck to the two of you!
Now that I’ve re-read Honey’s article and her responses to several great pieces of advice, I think this entire article is a hoax – simply designed to send fiscally responsible people off their rockers. I’m not buying it. You’d never find someone(s) this irresponsible blogging on a pf site.
I’m inclined to believe her story’s a hoax as well but that’s because I don’t want to believe she’s that obtuse.
I don’t think this is a real article or writer as well. Nearly every response she has just creates more controversy. Mensa? Really?
I’m a little bothered by how this prolonged critique of Honey’s decisions has for some people devolved into an overall critique of getting a Ph.D. AnnW’s comment about it being somehow self-indulgent is a particularly striking example of this.
It is common knowledge that one should not go into debt to get a humanities Ph.D. Even Honey herself is painfully aware of this now that she is finished and has such debt to pay back.
How, though, is it self-indulgent or just a vanity project? I can tell you that if this were the only valid reason to get those letters after your name, most people would quit way before the long and arduous dissertation was over.
Most people get a Ph.D., at least in the humanities, because they either love to teach college students OR they are passionate about the subject matter. How is this self-indulgent? And even the results are far from self-indulgent. Even though I didn’t end up becoming a professor, I produced a 300+ page history book on an important group of people in an important city who lived 200 years ago. Despite the utilitarian view of many, this knowledge does matter. The past does matter.
So I managed to spend ten years of my life researching something that is important. While I have many regrets about my education, that is not one of them. It was not a vanity project. The school benefited by having another teaching assistant and the added cache of being able to call themselves a research institution. Graduate students do that for a university. I was able to delve into a subject matter not known by many. In fact, I produced the first book on the subject in English.
The Ph.D. Honey has is not the problem here. It’s the fact that she went into debt to get it.
Agreed, the Ph.D. is not an issue. Rather, it would seem the job she has taken with that doctorate. I understand she’s sticking around until she’s fully vested in the retirement plan, but I think she should be contacting her superiors and communicating that if there’s no upward momentum in position/salary, she will be looking elsewhere. Especially since her irregular income sources listed are going to dry up. She can only sell a finite amount of stuff and she already stated her father’s gifts are likely at an end.
In any case, her husband’s business needs to get their books straightened up with an accountant. His gross income barely covers his outflow, even before taxes are involved.
I don’t think Honey’s PhD or even the debt she took on to get the PhD is the problem. I think Honey’s problem is that she thinks she’s better than the rest of us, and she feels like none of our advice is good enough.
Nope, can’t do that, because she really needs her massage/Mensa/widget. Nope, can’t take advice from anyone who believes in God because he must be an idiot. Can’t, can’t, can’t.
Never mind that a lot of us have very little to no debt, savings, and pay our taxes on time–we’re not worthy of Honey.
I’d hesitate to say she’s shot down everything the commenters have offered. Looking back over the comments she’s noted that Mensa, AAA, sorority fees, hair care and a few other things could be cut. After the post denoting her efforts to change comes through, then we’ll have the final say on whether this is a useful venue for her story, or just yanking our chains.
I’ll be certainly looking at that gift fund. $2000 of found money that could be appropriated and advanced against tiny balances to free up cash flow. Anyone who is offended by lack of gifts that can’t understand a tough economy and new business venture isn’t a friend I’d want.
That said, being at the start of my debt recovery journey ($45k student, $5k CC, $57k income, ink still drying on my BS), I find her story useful in examining both her situation and my own. It certainly encourages me to advance my snowball process, even with 10 year notes instead of their 30.
I agree – getting a PhD isn’t frivolous. It’s hard, hard work! My boyfriend is in a doctorate program, and not only does he have to do his own research but he also has to teach each semester. Luckily, he isn’t going into debt as he receives a small stipend from the his university. But he is not self-indulgent or entitled. Teaching at the college level is something he’s wanted to do since he was a teenager (or maybe younger), he enjoys teaching, and he loves learning. And getting a PhD is the only way he’ll be able to have a shot at becoming a professor.
Now, was getting a PhD a good idea for Honey? Maybe, maybe not… I’ll wait until I read more about her decision. But, even if it was a bad financial decision I see no reason to crucify her for it. We all make mistakes. What matters is what we do to correct them, and right now Honey is working on that. Maybe not as quickly as some of you would like, as if overnight someone could transform their entire way of life and their spouse’s way of life into the Debt Snowball Extravaganza, but she’s trying. And she’s done something I never would have done when I was paying off my credit card debt – gone public.
People have jumped on Honey enough about the problem this is for her relationship, and her husband’s immaturity, so I won’t add to that chorus. I want to chip in with the suggestions I have from my own experience:
1. Your husband’s business needs to hire a PT accountant. An accounting firm should be help to help out his business for a few hundred dollars a month. While this might seem counter-intuitive (it costs money), an accountant will a) separate his business expenses from his personal expenses, b) pay his taxes, and c) give him advice that he will hopefully take because it comes from a neutral source.
2. You may want to think about adopting a his-mine-ours financial system. Make a “household” budget and then tell him what his portion of it is. That way you will at least have control of the joint expense (rent, utilities, etc.) and won’t have to worry about divvying them up or whether he’s paid them or not. And then if THAT needs to go up or down, you can make the necessary adjustments without starting an argument (“Our household budget needs to go up by $14”) and you can include things like saving for an emergency fund or a house in that budget. It sounds like he will always spend as much as he has.
Good luck. I agree with everyone else that you’re doomed if you don’t make changes, but hopefully this process will make one or both of you see the light.
Accountant with years of experience in the legal industry here. Honey’s husband’s attitude toward budgeting and expenses screams “trust account irregularities” to me. I don’t mean to imply that he has done something unethical, but his attitude is often shared by those who start skimming clients’ funds. (Short a little month? Well, let’s grab a few hundred dollars from the trust account, no one will notice …)
Honey – I don’t know if that’s enough to shake some sense into your husband – but maybe if he knew that his attitude could have a detrimental effect on his professional reputation, he might be more interested in changing.
I appreciate the concern, Sarah, but his firm’s trust account is fully intact and Jake considers it inviolable. He only pays himself for work that his clients have been billed (and have paid the bill). In addition, all the firm’s expenses are paid before he disburses any money to himself.
You missed my point because I was unclear. It’s not about what he’s actually doing with the trust account. It’s about the *perception* of what might be going on with the firm’s finances. He might have the tightest accounting of any attorney out there — although I know that’s not the case based on your prior comments re: taxes and the former partner — but his comments sound more like someone who plays fast and loose, and that’s what other attorneys will take notice of. I think it’s great for you guys to be open about your personal situation, but because his attitude is often associated with people with loose ethics in his industry, he risks his professional reputation. In accounting/auditing, we are taught that the appearance of impropriety is just as bad as impropriety itself.
What I am saying is that if he values his professional reputation, he should get his personal finances in order.
oh gosh! forgive me for not reading through all 275 comments 🙂 i just wanted to add my two cents- sort out those tax payments immediately!!!!
i’ve had a similar path- i worked a normal job for a while then went freelance (~ age 25, i’m 29 now); i “knew” in the back of my head i “should” save for taxes, but the next april seemed so far away, and there were so many cool things to buy. well, somehow april did come around, and my CPA told me to sit down cause i owed 11k in taxes. then the economy tanked (my pre-recession salary was 40-60k, post has been 5-20k), i had very little income and one big fat tax bill (plus about 8K in living expenses on my credit card, so 19K total).
i’ve been paying that off ever since- hoping to have it paid off next year. i’ve been living like a pauper, no new clothes, no haircuts, my shoes are falling apart, but i’m so close to getting it paid off i’d rather live like a hobo for another year than prolong the pain.
in any case, please, please, BE WARY OF THOSE FREELANCE TAXES!!!!!!!
Dude, what are your GOALS? What are you trying to accomplish with your money? Frankly, you and your husband could live your whole lives and die with that giant debt load – people do all the time. What is the thing you want to have or do that absolutely, positively, requires more money or less debt? I think the starting point here, that we haven’t heard about, is for you and hubby to talk seriously and repeatedly about your deep desires. One type of desire is avoiding bad: for example, “I want to stay in the house, not move into a cardboard box, if you die suddenly.” The other type of desire is drawing toward good: “I want to take a month to hike the Bohusleden in Sweden.” Both are followed by the question: what has to be true about our finances for this desire to become reality? So figure out a few desires you both can AGREE on and start from there.
[diaclaimer] There is nothing constructive about my reply.
A part of me would like to see them fail and fail hard just so that we can read how they’re going to pick up the pieces. This “getting on the same page” bull is already old after two posts.
Put the gun to his head already! Withhold the south mouth, no play time on the bounce house…
Honey can probably start her very own blog on this situation alone. I’d follow the crap out of it. It’s much better than mindless reality television when I can read it and play a movie in my head like it’s a book.
Does this qualify as the crudest comment ever posted on GRS? I can’t say I didn’t laugh, but still.
Can’t. Stop. Reading. Want to. Feel guilty about it. But Can’t. Like others on here, this is just a train wreck and it makes me feel kind of dirty for reading.
Honey,
I haven’t read through all the comments, so this might have been mentioned before, but I wonder if your husband could benefit from Ramit Sethi’s money-saving (and earning) strategies. Ramit shows you how to deal with the psychological blocks that keep most people from saving and earning more money. He eschews the idea of coming up with a budget since the word “budget” usually scares people and prevents them from even thinking about money. His book and blog tend to appeal to people in their twenties and early thirties (young, no children, etc.). His website is here: http://www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com/home2/letter/ and, to continue living frugally, why not check the book out from the library?
Hi, Michelle! I owned that book (and subscribe to his blog) – I L-O-V-E Ramit, though he’s much less sarcastic on NPR. I sent the book to a friend of mine, I’ll have to ask her if I can get it back. Thanks for the reminder!
Alright, I haven’t had time to read through all the comments so forgive me if this has already been discussed.
I did the BMF for Honey’s expenses so here is the breakdown for Jake.
Needs: 37%
Includes: Rent, rental insurance, auto expenses (gas, maintenance, insurance), electricity, food, and healthcare
Wants: 19%
Includes: Annual dues, internet, cable, Netflix, Vet/pet expenses, gifts, cleaner, AAA dues, cash, hair, cell, and charity
Debt/Savings: 70%
Total: 126%
Income: Estimated 18% tax rate so I used a monthly amount of $3000.
Okay, your situation was bad enough with your total equating to 105%. Jake is spending WAY outside his means at this point. You want to get his attention? 70% of his income is going to debt repayment!!!!
The first thing you need to do is get Jake to stop using the credit cards for a month. Right now he either really thinks things are fine or he is lying (either to you or himself or both). Go a month without credit cards and really get a feel for how much you are going over each month. Based on my calculations, Jake is in the red by nearly $800 every month!
He is not actually paying down the cards (he can’t be – the math doesn’t support it). Just stop. Period.
The other thing to think about is how much he is paying in interest every month. Just in CC debt, he is paying about $1000 every year. This will go up to about $2000 each year when those 0% rates expire. I didn’t have the interest rates for the student loans and car loan, but let’s just say it probably over $5000 per year.
So recap: Jake is currently earning (on average) 36k net. He is spending 13k on needs, nearly 7k on wants, and a whooping 25k on debt, including around 6-7k on interest. Show him those numbers and ask him if he still thinks things will work themselves out. I think maybe he hasn’t wrapped his head around the situation and the cold hard numbers might be what he needs to see. If nothing else, maybe the cold, hard numbers are what you need to see.
Thanks for the breakdown. After reading his attitude about income/bills/budget I was pretty sure he was making up any shortfalls with a CC.
Putting away the CC’s is really the first step in my mind. Honey admits to using them each month as well though it’s unclear if it’s covering any shortages.
But it’s a terrible habit for people in this situation. It’s a completely different mindset if you “need/want” to spend money and the choice is to use cash from savings or go without, rather than using a CC and figuring it out later.
My hub and I have a CC we carry, but it has a zero balance and before either of us uses it, we make sure the other is aware that we will and why. The last time it was used was for a long weekend rental car (most rental companies don’t let you use a debit…or didn’t used to) and even then we talked about it ahead of time.
I appreciate the breakdown, too, it will be very helpful! I am not positive what his credit card habit has been though I know he prefers not to use them and pay debit for everything.
Eileen, I do have one credit card that I actually use for grocery store, etc., but it’s paid in full every month.
I guess the question is, how are the two of you paying for monthly/yearly expenses that are greater than your income? If it’s not credit cards, then how?
A couple of comments and a few suggestions. I have read some but not all of the comments on both your financial layout and your husbands, so I apologize if I’m repeating anything here.
First, congrats on your PhD, your marriage, and getting a job after the PhD. Those are all accomplishments to be proud of, so don’t let your debt load take away from those accomplishments. Now, some things to think about.
You’ve thought about how you and your husband spend your money. Now think about how you spend your time. Laura Vanderkam’s book 168 Hours gives one way to think of this; I’m sure there are others. But a useful categorization would be something along the lines of time spent that makes money, time spent that costs money, and neutral time that does neither. You want to maximize the time spent on the first and third category, and minimize the time spent on the second. This should be useful for your husband as well. My experience with people starting businesses is that they spend a lot of time building that business, because they are very interested in what they are doing and expect returns down the line. So I would expect that your husband is spending a lot of time on his law practice. If he isn’t, he may want to think about how he really feels about having his own practice beyond the benefits of not having his working time directed by a boss.
Eventually you need to make more money, in order to pay down your loans before you reach social security age. But I think your university job actually sounds like a pretty good one, and your salary pretty reasonable. It’s a sad fact that humanities PhDs don’t mean that you make lots of money with all that education. Hopefully you knew this going in. But, if your contract allows it, I would consider picking up some adjunct work, either classroom teaching in the evenings or online teaching. This would be something you can add to your CV, and is necessary if you think you might want to go TT at some point. This doesn’t pay a lot either, but it is work in your field that builds your CV. Other freelance writing work is also a good idea. Make sure your read what Donna Freedman has to say on the subject; she has a lot of good ideas and advice. But the above ideas all involve using your time on things you hopefully enjoy (since they are a significant part of getting the PhD) that also bring in some income. As a side benefit, time spent bringing in money isn’t generally spent spending it.
Mensa: I don’t know what the Mensa events involve, but given the vitriol directed at this, I have to assume they involve torturing puppies and drowning kittens. If you are able to do networking for yourself, to get additional writing gigs, then it may be worth it. Otherwise, it doesn’t make sense.
Let your husband do his own networking. Presumably you chose a career in writing because it’s what you’re good at, and he chose to be a lawyer for the same reason. So you should each be working on your strengths. The days of the wife working for free on her husband’s career are over. You’ll get much better returns applying that time and energy to your own career.
On your marriage, don’t let your debt load become the sole driver of your interactions in your marriage. I’m sure your husband has many good qualities. Not everyone is good with money or interested in the details.
You mentioned that you were both animal lovers. Could you volunteer together at a shelter? This would give you time together doing an activity that’s meaningful and in line with your interests, costs little or nothing, and many shelters desperately need volunteers. I would also suggest walking as an activity that’s beneficial healthwise, costs little to nothing (you don’t need special shoes etc), and if your husband did this with you, would give you time to talk and connect. My husband and I often walk in the evenings after dinner, once it has cooled off, in lieu of watching TV. We get to know our neighborhood, and actually find that we feel more relaxed after walking than after “relaxing” in front of the TV.
Best wishes for your future, and good luck. Start with small steps, keep going, and with persistence you’ll get there. But you didn’t get the PhD or the debt in 6 mos, and so have have to expect that the process of getting out of debt will take time too.
My advice to Honey:
When a person is in a tough situation, like climbing out of debt, it’s very difficult to reflect on one’s own experience since there is no hind sight. While I get that you are laying the ground work for your debt journey, the journey is unwritten and some of those with experience really do want to help you. I would recommend you hold your responses to comments to give yourself a chance to breathe, check in with yourself, and then respond. The tone of the comments has been a little too “reality tv” (meaning it seems too emotionally defensive, so it’s hard to see where you are truly coming from).
Keep an appreciative tone with the readers who take the time to respond, heck, even thank them, even if you don’t agree with them, as long as there is a sense they are thoughtfully trying to help you.
Never mention Mensa again (or phD for that matter), unless there’s a really good reason to do so (like “I cancelled Mensa membership is everybody happy now?!”, just kidding :). You want to put that misread comment about being smarter than most people to bed.
Thanks for listening.
Honey,
I’m just dumbfounded. In a previous post of yours, you gave us your student loan amount…which is HUGE. I almost fell out of my chair when I saw your take home salary.
I am a stay at home mom. As a hobby, I have an eBay store. I make approximately the same amount of you per month. As I said before, I am just dumbfounded.
What works for us, and I know has worked for other couples is to combine finances, and put one person in charge of them. He’s obviously focused on other things, so I can’t think of a reason why he would mind you managing everything.
It sounds like you’re worried about always saying no, but that isn’t what discussions should be like. It should really be about the trade offs. Especially if you two are doing reasonably well, there’s a lot you can do with the money.
If he needs spending cash, I’d try to give him a “fun” account with a monthly amount you guys agree to. I know for some couples, hobbies were budgeted in, and that was that. It frees you from having to manage that, and he’s free to spend it without worrying. Similarly, I’ve known moms to use the extra grocery money, when there was some, for a treat without having to worry over whether it would break the budget.
It seems you have it together. I thoroughly appreciate that my wife can tell me how much money we have sitting around for the next 2 months, pays all the bills, and she can tell me if we have X amount to get something. She also tells me not this month sometimes, or we can’t do Y if we do that. Which, if most of the time it is a yes, the occasional No isn’t an issue.
I don’t know how you bring the subject up with your husband. For me and my wife that was always the way we were going to do it. There’s just US, no her and me, no other options, till death do US part. She started doing the finances because she likes balancing the checkbook, and I’d rather goof off. And my credit score is amazing because she NEVER misses anything.
It’s also nice when we plan a trip, which for 7 of us costs a bit. She’ll have the savings going months in advance, and likely have half of it paid for, with the rest saved up, and we know we can just enjoy the time together, doing whatever, without fretting over if we’ll have to carry a balance for a month. It is very freeing for me, and I think that’d be what your husband would gain from giving the task to you. Plus you’d obviously have a better state of mind knowing what’s going up.
Just remember, it’s all an agreement between you two about where you want to go. You’re just managing to numbers, but the decisions are always between you two. When you see the numbers will go red if you add in another X amount for this, it’s pretty clear it’s not the right time to do that.
It certainly is a challenge when one person won’t be a part of the process. Budgeting in a family really takes all members to have buy in to understand the importance. We wrote a series on this not too long ago about who manages, who makes, and who spends the money. Any of those can be one or all members of a family, and the more involved everyone is, the better the long-term success!